Steve,
Yes, I agree with much of what you are saying. And it is certainly true that the these passages were applied in this fashion. If I lived in the 1st Century, I would no doubt have the propensity and desire to apply them to the amazing times I found myself in. Even with that said, it does not necessarily prevent for a more plain sense understanding that transcends generational barriers. Being premill, I can accept your comments and still see a purpose and perhaps a necessity for a literal theocratic kingdom. I toyed with the amill understanding for many years at the end of the 80s when I first abandoned the premill dispensational (pretrib) views. But these arguments as convincing as they were, were somewhat shallow…to me.
I’m not exactly sure you understood what I wrote earlier. But I don’t believe the 1000 years represents the uncursed creation /new/pristine one. Rather I see it as for lack of a better term, a time when creation is a “Christian”; practically still fallen but yet a new creature in Christ. I see it as a pattern of the Christian life just as I explained; man fell, then God cursed creation. As man does, so creations has been a reflection in general. It’s part of the sin and consequence cycle, I believe God is using and will use in eternity to teach us about the consequences as we appreciate what He has done for us. In my mind, denying a literal Millennium or theocratic rule, you deny this clear pattern that I found in my study of the Bible.
I believe the purpose of the Millennium is just the same as the purpose of a Christian life. There is a reason why we just don’t graduate to heaven the minute we accept Christ’s offer. We must overcome, and let go of our lives. Jesus needs to be the Theocrat of our lives and hearts. It is the process of sanctification that shows us just how far the “rabbit hole” of sin goes and just how much we need Jesus. The same is true of the Millennium. Jesus will reign on earth. The world, flesh and devil will be reduced for a while to the flesh for the most part. But even then, sin is a deep root and the fact, as I see it, that the Devil is loosed again to fool the world after the Millennium is a testimony to it horror and necessity even more for God’s intervention. It’s all a pattern, an illustration, an object lesson – a very real one with real consequences.
Hell is eternal and we need to know – well God wants us to know, that He did give everyone a chance and tried many different ways to show justice. Some people might complain that 120 years was not enough. Well, God used to let people live up to a thousand years and did that help? John explained that we suffered under the world, the flesh and devil and of course, according to Paul, he’s the god of this age, so by no means is he locked up. But just as the devil has no power over a Christian, he will have no power in the Millennium and even then people will falter.
When the universe flees from God’s face it will melt away and also need glorification to its pristine state so to speak where evil has not set foot. That’s the eternal state and that’s what I meant. I don’t think an amillenialist/preterist could hold to the same pattern. That’s one of the reason why I see that a literal Millennium is more than warranted even though there is a spiritual application at the beginning of the Christian era when men are becoming Christian and Christ is moving into their hearts.
What's your view on Zechariah 14?
Steve,
I’ve spent more time thinking about your Millennial scripture references that appear to be spiritualized in the New Testament. I wanted to study at more length the “conflict” they cause with Millennial teaching. Before I discuss these, I would say that we really should be discussing passages that are more on topic to the End Times, Last Days with regards to order and sequence. These are all great, but wouldn’t you agree there are more applicable passages? I’d also love to discuss the “this generation” passages in the Gospels sometime.
Isa. 2:1-4 describes what should be understood in a plain sense as something literal. There is no indication of symbolic language. Hebrews 12:22-23 does seem to allude to it in a heavenly sense. I think 12:25 is very clear in showing the contrast between earthly Sinai and heavenly Zion. And yet there is a physical Zion. My point in this passage would be to point out that when a person becomes a Christian he lives in a new spiritual reality and that someday the physical reality will catch up. There is no specific reason to understand this passage as the ultimate fulfillment of Isaiah 2 because rather than being used in that very manner it is employed to show the contrast between the Old and New Covenants for the purpose of holy living. And besides, 12:27-28 seems to be talking about a future fulfillment anyway or at least future to Hebrews. In any case, it is debatable.
Isa. 9:1-7 cited in Matt. 4:12-17 – I wouldn’t go that far. I’d stop the citation at Isa. 9:2. Perhaps you were thinking of Luke 1:32-33 for Isa. 9:6-7. And Jesus will come back and, of course, His kingdom has no end. This does not preclude a literal kingdom nor does it suggest a spiritual fulfillment only. If by meaning the kingdom of God is at hand, then certainly as I have mentioned before. It is a spiritual reality before it is a physical reality. A Christian life is a testimony to that.
Isa. 11 cited in Ro. 15:10 – I don’t see this connection. Please expound because I love Isaiah 11 and the references to Branch in Zechariah.
Isa. 35 alluded to in Matt. 11:1-6 and Heb 12:12. Actually you should include Heb. 12:13 too. There’s some beautiful imagery here. I certainly agree with this testimony from Jesus and fulfillment for His First Coming. However, I don’t see a need to divorce it from any references to the Second Coming. The fact that this is spiritually fulfilled doesn’t preclude an ultimate fulfillment any more that the Spirit is a spiritual guarantee of a future inheritance (Ephesians 1:13-14).
Jer. 30-33 cited in Matt. 2:17 crossref’g and alluded to in Luke 22:20 & Heb 8:7-13
I agree that Jer. 31:31-32 fits the First Coming paradigm but I also see a greater fulfillment yet possible. But other sections are more difficult to reconcile with this line of thought such as Jer. 32:36-41 because it is even more explicit. I think of the “one heart” fulfillment or that they will “not turn” from God. These do not even apply to the Church. I wish we could have such a rosy picture of the Church. But God is talking directly about the people who He has brought disaster upon.
Eze. 34 and 37 alluded to in John 10:11, 14 & Heb. 13:20 The Good Shepherd as opposed to the bad shepherds. Am I to understand that because the closing doxology in Hebrews connects the Good Shepherd with Jesus rising from the dead that the Good Shepherd of Ezekiel 34 means that the dry bones coming to life in Ezekiel 37 are those who believe in Christ? Your starting to sound like a pre-tribber in methodology in a good humored sense. I see a more interesting connection between Ezekiel 37:9,11 with Rev. 7:1-8. Futurist, as you know, see modern day parallels either with the holocaust and the reestablishment of Israel. In fact, if we read on into the next chapters two chapters I think they fit better with a future fulfillment rather than any past one.
Joel 2:28-3:21 cited in Acts 2:16-21 How does Joel 3:2 fit in your scheme? Is “all nations” Rome or symbolic of all the nations represented at Pentecost? Is Joel 3:3 an appropriate connection to make? I could go on. I see your point and the obvious citation of this passage during Pentecost. A number of people (many futurists) would see the Church age and gap between the 69th and 70th week correspond with this. But you know all this, and I could chat about the dual fulfillments, and how, as you know, Daniel 7 and 8 solidly demonstrate this principle of prophecy. But as you say, you’ve come out of all that or am I mistaken on this point regarding dual fulfillments?
Amos 9:11ff cited in Acts 15:14-17 I suppose we could discuss at length the timing of Amos 9:14 and its relationship to Amos 9:11 and the discussion of not overburdening Gentiles in their salvation.
Zech 14:8; Eze. 47:1ff; Joel 3:18 alluded to in John 7:37-39 Once again a great passage. Jesus fulfills this spiritually and then I believe it will be physically true someday…kinda like the Christian life.
Hey. Thanks for the Bible study. It’s always great to go through all this again. However, as I mentioned earlier, I don’t share your opinion about the conflict between apostolic writings and millennialism. I see dual fulfillments and patterns such as a precursor followed by an ultimate fulfillment more and more. I listened to you Daniel tape series and did not hear you really discuss this interesting prophetic principle displayed in Daniel 7 and 8 except to mention that yes in deed, the little horn shows up in the third empire in one chapter and in the 4th in the other chapter. Should we discuss this further in the Dual Fulfillments topic?
I’ve spent more time thinking about your Millennial scripture references that appear to be spiritualized in the New Testament. I wanted to study at more length the “conflict” they cause with Millennial teaching. Before I discuss these, I would say that we really should be discussing passages that are more on topic to the End Times, Last Days with regards to order and sequence. These are all great, but wouldn’t you agree there are more applicable passages? I’d also love to discuss the “this generation” passages in the Gospels sometime.
Isa. 2:1-4 describes what should be understood in a plain sense as something literal. There is no indication of symbolic language. Hebrews 12:22-23 does seem to allude to it in a heavenly sense. I think 12:25 is very clear in showing the contrast between earthly Sinai and heavenly Zion. And yet there is a physical Zion. My point in this passage would be to point out that when a person becomes a Christian he lives in a new spiritual reality and that someday the physical reality will catch up. There is no specific reason to understand this passage as the ultimate fulfillment of Isaiah 2 because rather than being used in that very manner it is employed to show the contrast between the Old and New Covenants for the purpose of holy living. And besides, 12:27-28 seems to be talking about a future fulfillment anyway or at least future to Hebrews. In any case, it is debatable.
Isa. 9:1-7 cited in Matt. 4:12-17 – I wouldn’t go that far. I’d stop the citation at Isa. 9:2. Perhaps you were thinking of Luke 1:32-33 for Isa. 9:6-7. And Jesus will come back and, of course, His kingdom has no end. This does not preclude a literal kingdom nor does it suggest a spiritual fulfillment only. If by meaning the kingdom of God is at hand, then certainly as I have mentioned before. It is a spiritual reality before it is a physical reality. A Christian life is a testimony to that.
Isa. 11 cited in Ro. 15:10 – I don’t see this connection. Please expound because I love Isaiah 11 and the references to Branch in Zechariah.
Isa. 35 alluded to in Matt. 11:1-6 and Heb 12:12. Actually you should include Heb. 12:13 too. There’s some beautiful imagery here. I certainly agree with this testimony from Jesus and fulfillment for His First Coming. However, I don’t see a need to divorce it from any references to the Second Coming. The fact that this is spiritually fulfilled doesn’t preclude an ultimate fulfillment any more that the Spirit is a spiritual guarantee of a future inheritance (Ephesians 1:13-14).
Jer. 30-33 cited in Matt. 2:17 crossref’g and alluded to in Luke 22:20 & Heb 8:7-13
I agree that Jer. 31:31-32 fits the First Coming paradigm but I also see a greater fulfillment yet possible. But other sections are more difficult to reconcile with this line of thought such as Jer. 32:36-41 because it is even more explicit. I think of the “one heart” fulfillment or that they will “not turn” from God. These do not even apply to the Church. I wish we could have such a rosy picture of the Church. But God is talking directly about the people who He has brought disaster upon.
Eze. 34 and 37 alluded to in John 10:11, 14 & Heb. 13:20 The Good Shepherd as opposed to the bad shepherds. Am I to understand that because the closing doxology in Hebrews connects the Good Shepherd with Jesus rising from the dead that the Good Shepherd of Ezekiel 34 means that the dry bones coming to life in Ezekiel 37 are those who believe in Christ? Your starting to sound like a pre-tribber in methodology in a good humored sense. I see a more interesting connection between Ezekiel 37:9,11 with Rev. 7:1-8. Futurist, as you know, see modern day parallels either with the holocaust and the reestablishment of Israel. In fact, if we read on into the next chapters two chapters I think they fit better with a future fulfillment rather than any past one.
Joel 2:28-3:21 cited in Acts 2:16-21 How does Joel 3:2 fit in your scheme? Is “all nations” Rome or symbolic of all the nations represented at Pentecost? Is Joel 3:3 an appropriate connection to make? I could go on. I see your point and the obvious citation of this passage during Pentecost. A number of people (many futurists) would see the Church age and gap between the 69th and 70th week correspond with this. But you know all this, and I could chat about the dual fulfillments, and how, as you know, Daniel 7 and 8 solidly demonstrate this principle of prophecy. But as you say, you’ve come out of all that or am I mistaken on this point regarding dual fulfillments?
Amos 9:11ff cited in Acts 15:14-17 I suppose we could discuss at length the timing of Amos 9:14 and its relationship to Amos 9:11 and the discussion of not overburdening Gentiles in their salvation.
Zech 14:8; Eze. 47:1ff; Joel 3:18 alluded to in John 7:37-39 Once again a great passage. Jesus fulfills this spiritually and then I believe it will be physically true someday…kinda like the Christian life.
Hey. Thanks for the Bible study. It’s always great to go through all this again. However, as I mentioned earlier, I don’t share your opinion about the conflict between apostolic writings and millennialism. I see dual fulfillments and patterns such as a precursor followed by an ultimate fulfillment more and more. I listened to you Daniel tape series and did not hear you really discuss this interesting prophetic principle displayed in Daniel 7 and 8 except to mention that yes in deed, the little horn shows up in the third empire in one chapter and in the 4th in the other chapter. Should we discuss this further in the Dual Fulfillments topic?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Always willing to listen and consider by the grace of God,
Cameron Fultz
Cameron Fultz
-
_Benjamin Ho
- Posts: 137
- Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:16 am
- Location: Singapore
11 And it shall be inhabited, for there shall never again be a decree of utter destruction. Jerusalem shall dwell in security.
12 And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the peoples that wage war against Jerusalem: their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. 13 And on that day a great panic from the Lord shall fall on them, so that each will seize the hand of another, and the hand of the one will be raised against the hand of the other. 14 Even Judah will fight against Jerusalem. And the wealth of all the surrounding nations shall be collected, gold, silver, and garments in great abundance. 15 And a plague like this plague shall fall on the horses, the mules, the camels, the donkeys, and whatever beasts may be in those camps.
(Zech 14:11-15, ESV)
Hi Steve,
I've listened to your Zechariah lectures on MP3. I might have missed it but I didn't hear your comment on Zech 14:12-15. Neither did you mention how you understood these verses in this thread.
Going from how you understand Zech 14, this is definitely not a reference to a nuclear holocaust! I'm figuring that it would be reasonable to understand these verses as God's judgement and punishment, using the metaphors of plague and panic, on those who persecute the Church (i.e. spiritual Jerusalem). And the phrase Judah fighting Jerusalem would refer to the Jews persecuting the Christians in the first century. And hence because of God's judgement, spiritual Jerusalem will dwell in safety (verse 11).
Is this right?
12 And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the peoples that wage war against Jerusalem: their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. 13 And on that day a great panic from the Lord shall fall on them, so that each will seize the hand of another, and the hand of the one will be raised against the hand of the other. 14 Even Judah will fight against Jerusalem. And the wealth of all the surrounding nations shall be collected, gold, silver, and garments in great abundance. 15 And a plague like this plague shall fall on the horses, the mules, the camels, the donkeys, and whatever beasts may be in those camps.
(Zech 14:11-15, ESV)
Hi Steve,
I've listened to your Zechariah lectures on MP3. I might have missed it but I didn't hear your comment on Zech 14:12-15. Neither did you mention how you understood these verses in this thread.
Going from how you understand Zech 14, this is definitely not a reference to a nuclear holocaust! I'm figuring that it would be reasonable to understand these verses as God's judgement and punishment, using the metaphors of plague and panic, on those who persecute the Church (i.e. spiritual Jerusalem). And the phrase Judah fighting Jerusalem would refer to the Jews persecuting the Christians in the first century. And hence because of God's judgement, spiritual Jerusalem will dwell in safety (verse 11).
Is this right?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Grace and peace,
Benjamin Ho
Benjamin Ho
Hi All,
ooh what an interesting forum!!! I've just found it.
My take on Zech 12 and 14 is as follows:
Zech 12 is talking about a war between Israel and her neighbours. (The nations round about) It seems to me that the leaders of Israel respond to an attack by her enemies with fire. "I will smite the horses with blindness and madness" may be some kind of chemical warfare with her Islamic neighbours who now vow to destroy her - nerve gas of some kind. To which Israel responds with fire - possibly a nuclear exchange as the nations round about are burned.
There is a growing awareness of Christ as Messiah in Israel now. It is my hope, prayer and belief that this will increase as we're told in Romans that their blindness was to be until the fullness of the gentiles has come in. 1967 was a turning point.
Zech chapter 13 is interesting. It says that the idols will be abolished in the land. This cannot be about Islam as Islam is anti idolatry but Israel today is full of idols. The Holy places are full of Catholic and Orthodox images and icons. I am speculating a little now. What if... Israel's eyes are opened to the gospel and they bulldoze the Holy places? After all they are full of idols. It seems to indicate that false prophets will be executed. How would the nations respond?
I'm new here and haven't had time to share much yet but have studied prophecy and history for years. The last ten years I have become aware that antisemitism is on the rise yet again. An old lie is still around. It's called the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Rev 16:13 says 3 evil Spirits like frogs gather the world to Armageddon. I prayed about this verse for years before I finally saw what it was about. I believe it's about Antisemitism. (Rev 12 says a flood came out of the mouth of the dragon to destroy the woman (Israel)) Bear with me a little. Zech 14 is about Armageddon. All the nations gathered against Jerusalem. What brings them there? Let me suggest 2 things. 1. Hatred for the Jews. 2. Defense of "Human Rights" and the present 'politically correst' climate of tolerance.
What if the Jews destroyed the idols in the land and executed false (Catholic and Orthodox) false prophets. Western Europe and Russia would be furious. Western Europe now has a large and growing Muslim minority - If Israel takes out her neighbours in a conflict the muslim minority will be blinded by hatred. Maybe there will be a U.N. resolution to teach Israel a lesson - a coalition of nations led by Russia (Gog) Germany (Ashkenaz or Gomer) and Iran (Persia) and others - In other words Ezekiel 38.
At this time the Jews know Christ is messiah. Jesus said, "You will not see me again till you say, 'Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord.'" Anyway of this time Ezekiel says, My fury will come up in my face. and elsewhere that there will be a great shaking in the land of Israel. The seventh trumpet - at the last trump - the dead shall be raised and the living in Christ caught up - THE DAY. Jesus returns with all the saints to deliver Jerusalem. Accompanied by a global cataclysm: Great earthquakes, tsunamis, judgement. Isaiah says, The earth is burned and few men are left. Malachi says, The day will burn as an oven and the sinners will be ashes. Jeremiah that the dead will be from one end of the earth to the other with not enough men left to bury them. Peter that the elements will melt. John that there would be a great earthquake. Zechariah says the land will become a plain.
Seeing that all these things are to be destroyed what manner of people should we be? When the Lord comes, will he find faith? Lord have mercy...
ooh what an interesting forum!!! I've just found it.
My take on Zech 12 and 14 is as follows:
Zech 12 is talking about a war between Israel and her neighbours. (The nations round about) It seems to me that the leaders of Israel respond to an attack by her enemies with fire. "I will smite the horses with blindness and madness" may be some kind of chemical warfare with her Islamic neighbours who now vow to destroy her - nerve gas of some kind. To which Israel responds with fire - possibly a nuclear exchange as the nations round about are burned.
There is a growing awareness of Christ as Messiah in Israel now. It is my hope, prayer and belief that this will increase as we're told in Romans that their blindness was to be until the fullness of the gentiles has come in. 1967 was a turning point.
Zech chapter 13 is interesting. It says that the idols will be abolished in the land. This cannot be about Islam as Islam is anti idolatry but Israel today is full of idols. The Holy places are full of Catholic and Orthodox images and icons. I am speculating a little now. What if... Israel's eyes are opened to the gospel and they bulldoze the Holy places? After all they are full of idols. It seems to indicate that false prophets will be executed. How would the nations respond?
I'm new here and haven't had time to share much yet but have studied prophecy and history for years. The last ten years I have become aware that antisemitism is on the rise yet again. An old lie is still around. It's called the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Rev 16:13 says 3 evil Spirits like frogs gather the world to Armageddon. I prayed about this verse for years before I finally saw what it was about. I believe it's about Antisemitism. (Rev 12 says a flood came out of the mouth of the dragon to destroy the woman (Israel)) Bear with me a little. Zech 14 is about Armageddon. All the nations gathered against Jerusalem. What brings them there? Let me suggest 2 things. 1. Hatred for the Jews. 2. Defense of "Human Rights" and the present 'politically correst' climate of tolerance.
What if the Jews destroyed the idols in the land and executed false (Catholic and Orthodox) false prophets. Western Europe and Russia would be furious. Western Europe now has a large and growing Muslim minority - If Israel takes out her neighbours in a conflict the muslim minority will be blinded by hatred. Maybe there will be a U.N. resolution to teach Israel a lesson - a coalition of nations led by Russia (Gog) Germany (Ashkenaz or Gomer) and Iran (Persia) and others - In other words Ezekiel 38.
At this time the Jews know Christ is messiah. Jesus said, "You will not see me again till you say, 'Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord.'" Anyway of this time Ezekiel says, My fury will come up in my face. and elsewhere that there will be a great shaking in the land of Israel. The seventh trumpet - at the last trump - the dead shall be raised and the living in Christ caught up - THE DAY. Jesus returns with all the saints to deliver Jerusalem. Accompanied by a global cataclysm: Great earthquakes, tsunamis, judgement. Isaiah says, The earth is burned and few men are left. Malachi says, The day will burn as an oven and the sinners will be ashes. Jeremiah that the dead will be from one end of the earth to the other with not enough men left to bury them. Peter that the elements will melt. John that there would be a great earthquake. Zechariah says the land will become a plain.
Seeing that all these things are to be destroyed what manner of people should we be? When the Lord comes, will he find faith? Lord have mercy...
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Self-serving bump. Now, maybe I can find this thread more easily the next time I want to locate it. Perhaps Zechariah is not as difficult to understand as it seems.
Blessings,
Lazarus43
Blessings,
Lazarus43
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
physical vs. spiritual jerusalem
Steve (or others)
A couple incidental questions:
5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake [a] in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Is there any chance this might be related to the fleeing of the Christians to Pella before the destruction of Jerusalem? (I don't know much about this 'mountain valley' and what 'Azel' is.
And also, do I understand that you see 14:2 as referring to physical Jerusalem but then verses 8 onward as referring to spiritual Jerusalem (the church?). If that is the case (which I lean toward), would that mean then that in Zech. 12 where Jerusalem is called an invincible "firepot", the Church is also in view.
One of the big mysteries of Zech. 12-14 is, of course, it's seemingly contradictory accounts of the fate of Jerusalem- on the one hand being ransacked in some passages and on the other standing as an invincible fortress.
So, in a nutshell, do you see the difference between those two images to be the difference between physical Jerusalem and the Church?
A couple incidental questions:
5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake [a] in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Is there any chance this might be related to the fleeing of the Christians to Pella before the destruction of Jerusalem? (I don't know much about this 'mountain valley' and what 'Azel' is.
And also, do I understand that you see 14:2 as referring to physical Jerusalem but then verses 8 onward as referring to spiritual Jerusalem (the church?). If that is the case (which I lean toward), would that mean then that in Zech. 12 where Jerusalem is called an invincible "firepot", the Church is also in view.
One of the big mysteries of Zech. 12-14 is, of course, it's seemingly contradictory accounts of the fate of Jerusalem- on the one hand being ransacked in some passages and on the other standing as an invincible fortress.
So, in a nutshell, do you see the difference between those two images to be the difference between physical Jerusalem and the Church?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason: