Full-Preterism and it's consequences

[steve7150]

Would you care to explain John 11:25-26 for me?





"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies, and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

When you believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior your spirit is born again or born from above and you have eternal life. Upon death your "inner man" goes to be with the Lord
therefore though your body dies your spirit is alive in heaven. At the second coming our bodies are resurrected and .glorified and joined with our spirits.

[steve7150]

Would you care to explain Rev. 14 leading up to verse 13?
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’”
Allyn




Hi Allyn,
Since i have a historicist view of Revelation i don't think we can have common ground around this area. To me this beast in the middle of Rev is the Papacy , and being faithful to Jesus is being outside that system of Papacy and the other State Churches like the Church of England.

[Allyn]

Would you care to explain John 11:25-26 for me?





"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies, and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

When you believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior your spirit is born again or born from above and you have eternal life. Upon death your "inner man" goes to be with the Lord
therefore though your body dies your spirit is alive in heaven. At the second coming our bodies are resurrected and .glorified and joined with our spirits.

Thanks, Steve.

Is there a passage that tells you that our bodies are resurrected and joined with our spirit? I don't know of any. But I do know of a place where it says the body we receive is right now in heaven and waiting for us (2 Cor 5:1)
1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Doesn't the Bible teach that only Christ's body was raised and went to heaven and we are going to someday be like Him? Wouldn't the body that is like his be the one we see is now in heaven?


How would you show differently this teaching?

[Allyn]

Would you care to explain Rev. 14 leading up to verse 13?
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’”
Allyn




Hi Allyn,
Since i have a historicist view of Revelation i don't think we can have common ground around this area. To me this beast in the middle of Rev is the Papacy , and being faithful to Jesus is being outside that system of Papacy and the other State Churches like the Church of England.

Fine, Steve, but you should be able to explain how the dead are blessed from now on.

[steve7150]

Is there a passage that tells you that our bodies are resurrected and joined with our spirit? I don't know of any. But I do know of a place where it says the body we receive is right now in heaven and waiting for us (2 Cor 5:1)
1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.


Allyn,
I know you know these verses but here they are,
"We will not all sleep but we will all be changed , in a flash in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound , the dead will be raised imperishable and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality". 1st Cor 15.51-53

The key is that all are raised at the last trump, which sounds like at some event all the dead are raised simultaneously. However i believe our "spirit man" goes to be with Lord at the moment we die yet our final supernatural bodies are completed at the consummation of this age.

[steve7150]

Fine, Steve, but you should be able to explain how the dead are blessed from now on.
Allyn


"Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord, from now on.
Yes says the Spirit, they will rest from their labor for their deeds will follow them." Rev 14.13



The Papacy and it's image who claimed to be "the vicar of Christ" or "in place of Christ" has been judged and dethroned and exposed , (Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great , which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries) Rev 14.8

The true believers of the gospel like Hussites, Waldeseans, Anabaptists, Puritans and many other groups who were tormented by the beast but still followed Christ can rest and will receive a special reward in heaven.

[Allyn]

Is there a passage that tells you that our bodies are resurrected and joined with our spirit? I don't know of any. But I do know of a place where it says the body we receive is right now in heaven and waiting for us (2 Cor 5:1)
1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.


Allyn,
I know you know these verses but here they are,
"We will not all sleep but we will all be changed , in a flash in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound , the dead will be raised imperishable and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality". 1st Cor 15.51-53

The key is that all are raised at the last trump, which sounds like at some event all the dead are raised simultaneously. However i believe our "spirit man" goes to be with Lord at the moment we die yet our final supernatural bodies are completed at the consummation of this age.

Thanks Steve,
And yes I do know those verses. At the last trump (only one last trump - correct?) the resurrection occurs (Daniels people) and those who remain and are in Christ are changed (the kingdom has come - which is part of the prayer Jesus taught they should pray).


I agree with you and the Bible, Steve, that the spirit went to be with God but whose spirit is the question. But first lets pin down the verse that verifies what we both believe:
Ecc 12:7
7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Do we both agree that all the inspired works of the New Testament were written prior to the end of the first century AD? I say yes and so at the time of Paul's writings it was even before 70AD and before the Last Trump.

Peter did an exit from his earthly body and he tells us about it.
2 Peter 1

13I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, 14because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.

I mentioned this verse before which tells us where that PERSON goes after that tent is destroyed. The earthly body stays wherever it drops but.......
2 Cor 5

1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

BUT WAIT!!! They can't just go to their eternal reward after that tent is destroyed if the last trump hasn't sounded!

In 1 Cor 15 Paul is dealing with at least two groups of people; those who have died and those who are still alive. But none have moved on to the end accomplishment until the Last Trump:
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

When is the last trump, what is the mystery, how come fish can't float till they're dead? No, stop at the mystery, I got carried away with the seeking of wisdom!

Rev 10
7But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.

So anyway Peter tells us he is going to slip out of his earthly body and Paul tells us there is a heavenly body after that earthly one and Ecclesestes says the spirit, which is Peter without the flesh and blood, is in the care of God...Whew, where is this all going?
Here....back in 2 Cor 5

6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.

Well, that makes sense. While we are in the earthly body which is what we are in on earth, and God is in Heaven...yep we would be away from the Lord.

So when "we" die the spirit returns to the God who gave it. Prior to the last trump God puts the spirit away for safe keeping until said last trump when that spirit is awakened and raised to eternal life. After the last trump that spirit returns to the God that gave it and there is a CHANGE in that procedure in that the transfer to the heavenly house is immediate.

How do we know that the last trump was back there in 70 AD or first century? How do we know that the bible discusses both the situation BEFORE the last trump and the situation AFTER it?

John 11
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;
Believers will physically die, each and every one of them. Every believer who will ever live in the next billion years will also DIE. BUT after they do, after that earthly tent is destroyed, they will live again in that permanent heavenly house of 2 Cor 5:1.
That verse applies to every believer whether they DIE before the last trump or after it. In fact we eventual learn that is exactly what these two verses are really saying. They are spelling out the situation for BEFORE and AFTER the last trump.
Verse 26 is for those believers who LIVE until the time of the last trump and those people NEVER die. They live in the earthly body or tent, they die the physical death of the earthly body and because they NEVER DIE they live eternally which means that at their death they immediately enter the eternal heavenly house.

26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die.

So the Saints that died before were present with the Lord. Yes, in fact so was Daniel because the spirit returned to the God that gave it. Were they conscious of heavenly life? No, not Daniel and his pre-gospel people - they weren't because they had to sleep until the last trump.

[steve7150]

Allyn,
It is an attractive belief system particularly the part about receiving our heavenly bodies immediately
and living in heaven forever.
However do you remember that old McDonalds commercial from the 1980s, "where's the beef"?
On the positive side in 2nd Cor 5 Paul sounds like he believes he will receive his heavenly body soon,
"Meanwhile we groan longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling" 2 Cor 5.2 . If he knew he would'nt receive this heavenly dwelling for 2,000 years he would'nt use the phrase "groan."
On the other hand , does he know that the last trump is 70AD? He did'nt disclose any date at all so it may be that God simply did'nt give him dates, because it is simply not for Paul to know. Paul has hope but it sounds like he thinks the last trump is in his lifetime which it was'nt therefore he may not have known anything at all about dates.
In 1st Cor 15.28 Paul says after the resurrection , after all enemies are under Christ's feet, after all dominion, authority and power is destroyed (evil) then "God will be all in all."
This is "the beef" my friend, none of these things have happened in the world. I think you would limit these things to the believers world only, but the resurrection applies to everyone (For in Adam all die ) , that means everyone who was in Adam gets resurrected and that would mean all those other conditions would apply to everyone and they have not happened.
You know i have no dog in this fight because i like the idea of getting a heavenly dwelling right away but it's gotta be true. Have you ever thought that the judgment of Jerusalem 70AD is a "type" or shadow of the final worldwide judgment?

[Allyn]

Steve,
For tonight, I respond to just this

Have you ever thought that the judgment of Jerusalem 70AD is a "type" or shadow of the final worldwide judgment?

No where in the Bible has a prophecy fulfilled been a type of a prophecy never spoken. The destruction of Jerusalem was predicted in the Old, and verified by Jesus in the new. So then where is the prophecy for a future event that had its fulfillment in the past (70AD)?

[Allyn]

Allyn,
It is an attractive belief system particularly the part about receiving our heavenly bodies immediately
and living in heaven forever.

Where does it say that those under the New Covenant do otherwise? I have a few unanswered questions to you. When will you answer them?

However do you remember that old McDonalds commercial from the 1980s, "where's the beef"?

So 2 Corinthians 5 isn't beefy enough for the believer?

On the positive side in 2nd Cor 5 Paul sounds like he believes he will receive his heavenly body soon,
"Meanwhile we groan longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling" 2 Cor 5.2 . If he knew he would'nt receive this heavenly dwelling for 2,000 years he would'nt use the phrase "groan."

So what's the problem? What will it take to convince you if you don't pay attention to the logic within you?

On the other hand , does he know that the last trump is 70AD? He did'nt disclose any date at all so it may be that God simply did'nt give him dates, because it is simply not for Paul to know. Paul has hope but it sounds like he thinks the last trump is in his lifetime which it was'nt therefore he may not have known anything at all about dates.
In 1st Cor 15.28 Paul says after the resurrection , after all enemies are under Christ's feet, after all dominion, authority and power is destroyed (evil) then "God will be all in all."

Jesus taught Paul all these things. He said he got his revelation from Jesus but yet you think he was just hoping. Does that resemble inspiration or guessing?

This is "the beef" my friend, none of these things have happened in the world. I think you would limit these things to the believers world only, but the resurrection applies to everyone (For in Adam all die ) , that means everyone who was in Adam gets resurrected and that would mean all those other conditions would apply to everyone and they have not happened.

So you say, but since Jesus said He fulfilled all things the Father had given Him to do - you say there are some things left undone. Who do you suggest I listen to?

Steve do spiritual happenings occur in the physical? When you got saved and that initial fire you may have felt settled in to a more routine, did that make you think that you must not have really been saved? In otherwords the only physical sign showing that we are now not under condemnation and that the death has been defeated is the Resurrection of Jesus. Other than that how are you different from any other good person on earth?