New Jerusalem

[Jill]

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[RV]

I think most on this forum believe the new Jerusalem represents the church - at least those who have responded.

Now, I have a most important question to ask. I would really appreciate for those who hold to the new Jerusalem being the church to answer the following:

Is 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 a future event, a present event, or a past event?

1 Corinthians 15:51-55 - Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Well... if what the FULL Pret say is true, it's probably all three.

What about you Mellontes?

When did that mystery begin to take place? At the rising of Jesus from the dead or in A.D 70?

[Mellontes]

Thank you for those who have forebeared...

If anyone truly believes that the new Jerusalem refers to the church and is what a believer becomes part at the moment of salvation, then they must also believe that 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 is a past and also a continuing event. Here is why:

A little background...

Paul, in Galatians 4 regarding the two covenants, refers to TWO Jerusalems.

Galatians 4:22-26 - For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

The Jerusalem which now is and was in bondage referred to Paul's day. It referred to the old covenant Judaism and temple worship/practice.

The Jerusalem which is above was free. This was the new covenant in Christ.

The two covenants are being contrasted with each other; one represents bondage and the other, freedom. This is probably the main reason the Gospel was preached to the Jews, the house of Israel, FIRST. John 8 and the parable of the householder in Matthew 21 express the danger of holding to the old covenant instead of believing in the Messiah - new covenant.

Now we go to Revelation...

Revelation 21:2 - And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And yes, I agree that it is a simile (like, as) representing a bride and that this bride is adorned for her husband. Surely this is no coincidence that the bride of Christ is often represented as the church and the husband is Jesus Christ.

But John does not stop there. He wants us to see who the Lamb's wife is up close and personal. Of course, the Lamb is Jesus Christ and the wife is...well let's see what John says...

Revelation 21:9-10 - And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Can there be any question that what John was shown equated to the heavenly Jerusalem which was equated with the Lamb's wife, the bride, which was equated with the new Jerusalem coming out of heaven prepared as a bride adorned for her husband just a few verses earlier?

In this new Jerusalem, there is no temple consistent with the fact that we, as Christians, are the temple of God. Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of that temple; we are the lively stones. God dwells within us. He is tabernacled among us. This is perfectly consistent with the following:

Revelation 21:22 - And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Revelation 21:3 - And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

But let's go back a few verses...to Revelation 21:2-4

Revelation 21:2-4 - And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

The same theme is found in Leviticus 26:12; Jeremiah 31:33; Jeremiah 32:38 and Ezekiel 37:26-27. Now compare these to 2 Corinthians 6:16 and John 14:23. There can be no question that the NT Scriptures regarding the church are the fulfillment of the OT Scriptures.

Now, check out Isaiah 25:8...

Isaiah 25:8 - He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

Death being swallowed up in victory is associated with the same time that God wipes away all tears. And when is death swallowed up in victory in fulfillment of Isaiah 25:8? It is fulfilled in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54.

1 Corinthians 15:52-54 - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

And since the new Jerusalem is related to the church as believing the Gospel, perhaps this is how one goes from mortality to immortality. Paul seems to agree as well:

2 Timothy 1:10 - But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

If one believes the new Jerusalem is the church and individuals are being translated into it every day, then by necessity God has wiped away our tears, and if He has done that, then death has been swallowed up in victory, and if that is true, then 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 has been fulfilled and is continuing to be fulfilled each time an individual experiences salvation.

Full-preterists believe that the earnest of their salvation was the Holy Spirit. We also believe that the Parousia would occur in their generation. The parousia consummated this promise (Hebrews 9:28) in the time frame of Hebrews 10:37.

[Homer]

Hi Melontes,

You wrote:

Is 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 a future event, a present event, or a past event?

1 Corinthians 15:51-55 - Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

It has been my belief that Jerusalem is used in the scriptures figuratively for the Church. It is also apparent that Jerusalem is used as a metonym for the Old and New Covenents in the allegory referenced in Galatians 4. I must state that eschatology is not my strong suit (as though I have one ).

It seems to me that we should consider v. 50 along with vs. 51-54 in understanding the passage in 1 Corinthians 15:

1 Corinthians 15:50-54 (New King James Version)

50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52. in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Verse 50 seems to reference a future time when we have put on that spiritual body.

God bless, Homer

[steve7150]

2 Timothy 1:10 - But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:



Mel,

Your belief as to the timing of the incorruptable being put on presently seems to be based on the above verse, but not being a greek scholar all i can surmise is that Paul said Christ brought this revelation "to light through the gospel." To me the message is Paul saying that Christ made known the mystery of eternal life and incorruption during his life,death and resurrection, not that immortality was a present event at that time.

[look2jesus]

Greetings Mel,

I wondered whether John might have seen the New Jerusalem in a future sense, as in a completed sense, when, as some would understand it, the body of Christ is complete?

Blessings,

l2j

[mikew]

Thank you for those who have forebeared...

If anyone truly believes that the new Jerusalem refers to the church and is what a believer becomes part at the moment of salvation, then they must also believe that 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 is a past and also a continuing event. Here is why:

A little background...

... SNIP ...

Full-preterists believe that the earnest of their salvation was the Holy Spirit. We also believe that the Parousia would occur in their generation. The parousia consummated this promise (Hebrews 9:28) in the time frame of Hebrews 10:37.

So are you telling us we can make a conclusion on the meaning of all these quoted passages based on the sequence you provided? Or ought we understand the context of the passages themselves, maybe with insights gained from Christ and the NT, before we try to consider the validity of your string of verses?

It is not advised that people be swayed by such a simplified argument. One aspect especially when quoting Old Testament prophecies is that these prophecies by default apply to Israel, to the Northern kingdom, to the Southern kingdom, or to Jerusalem. In other cases there are prophecies regarding Nebuchadnezzar or other's specifically addressed.

Then furthermore, the full preterism assumes all prophecies as being fulfilled. Such interpretation process requires sufficient proof before we should accept, if ever, the full preterism model for interpretation of scripture.

Plus you are encouraging people just to assume your conclusion based on a concept they may not have properly concluded from scripture. So your approach of argument is made all the more speculative.

Probably if anything your doctrinal conclusion should be that the New Jerusalem excludes modern Christians since, in your estimation, Christ and the New Jerusalem marriage event has been completed.

If we rely on Galatians (in the context you are forming), we would have to realize we are not the New Jerusalem but rather distinct from such. She is "our mother."