Which World Perished in 2 Peter 3:6?

[darinhouston]

Sometimes it only refers to full preterists.

[RV]

Perhaps we can hear from RV about his feelings on what and how I presented the material... although he may already have been predudiced by your own viewpoint...perhaps not. Anyway, I will defer to his opinion and apologize if deemed necessary.

.

I don't mind a little sarcasm. I also don't mind a heated debate. With those that can handle it of course.

But... like Steve, I'd like you to get to the bottom line.

Tell me... what was Peter really saying?

"κοσμω ασεβων επαξας"

You don't need to post stuff like this.

All you need to do is explain what you're really trying to say.

I told you I think it's C.

In plain english, just explain yourself. Im not a scholar and therefore simply use layman terms when trying to convince me.

I'd like to think I'm open and teachable... explain away my friend.

I just hope you're not on the other end of the futurist rope and trying to shove things into your paradigm.

[Mellontes]

Perhaps we can hear from RV about his feelings on what and how I presented the material... although he may already have been predudiced by your own viewpoint...perhaps not. Anyway, I will defer to his opinion and apologize if deemed necessary.

.

I don't mind a little sarcasm. I also don't mind a heated debate. With those that can handle it of course.

But... like Steve, I'd like you to get to the bottom line.

Tell me... what was Peter really saying?

"κοσμω ασεβων επαξας"

You don't need to post stuff like this.

All you need to do is explain what you're really trying to say.

I told you I think it's C.

In plain english, just explain yourself. Im not a scholar and therefore simply use layman terms when trying to convince me.

I'd like to think I'm open and teachable... explain away my friend.

I just hope you're not on the other end of the futurist rope and trying to shove things into your paradigm.

No sarcasm intended, at least not by me. If individuals are not willing to search the Scriptures for themselves, what point is there in being told what they supposedly say? The individual will still have to do the study themselves to verify, only now they have been prejudiced in one direction or another. That is why it seemingly looks like I am playing games. Nothing could be further from the truth. I encourage personal Bible study. Most just read the Bible according to those schedules (5 chapters OT, 1 Proverb, 5 Psalms, 3 chapters NT). Some don't even do that.

I am not a scholar either. I also don't believe one must be a scholar to interpret the Bible. If so, we must trust in someone else's faith - and that is exactly what has gotten many of us to go in the wrong direction, be it dispensationalism or Mormonism...

Most people associate the whole of 2 Peter 3 with planetary destruction and the breaking down of the universe. It is eventually to be replaced by another Earth and universe. This is 21st century Western scientific cultural thinking. We need to think like Peter and his audience - basically understand things using the hermeneutic of audience relevance. Think like Jews. Understand like Jews.

2 Peter 2:5 states that it was the "world" of the ungodly that perished - the old "world." People, people, people - not planet. But all of a sudden, what Peter said in chapter 2 is forgotten and the planet becomes the focus. Heaven and earth in 2 Peter 3 is not dealing with the planet earth and the physical universe! Heaven and earth must be understood according to the Jew's understanding. And let me say this right now; it is not an easy task and will take more than 5 minutes of your time. It will involve looking up "heaven and earth" every where it is used and determining the context with this question in mind, "Do they refer to inanimate objects (physical universe) or can it be referring to the Jews especially in a "religious" (for lack of a better word) sense?"

Isaiah 51:16 is one such example. Anyway, I will not do the study for you. It is essential that YOU do the study. And should you be able to determine the correct Jewish understanding, 2 Peter 3 will take on a different significance. It won't be destruction of the planet and the universe. It becomes a destruction of the entire old covenant economy which includes the temple sacrifces, high priest system, etc. It will be this "orderly system" (kosmos) that is brought to ruin. You will be easily able to associate the "elements" (Strong's 4747) with the way Paul used them in Galatians 4:3, Galatians 4:9, Colossians 2:8, Colossians 2:20, and Hebrews 5:12. Not to mention that Peter said Paul spoke of these things (time of the end related events) which included Peter's elements.

This is why Peter could truthfully say "the end of all things is at hand" (1 Peter 4:7). This is why, in the midst of the context of the destruction of the temple, the disciples asked "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world [age]?" Mark 13:4 and Luke 21:7 state the question with an "about to" emphasis by using the Greek word mello (Strong's 3195). This is why Jesus said it would happen in their generation. This is why Jesus in Matthew 23 scathingly rebuked the unbelieving Pharisees and said "I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city" Matthew 23:34 and this is why Jesus said that upon them "may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth" Matthew 23:35.

The unbelieving Jews had Jesus the Son of God crucified and persecuted the Lord's church ever since it began. Paul, as Saul, was one of the vicious persecutors. This persecution is recorded throughout the entire NT (Matthew 23:34-36, Acts 8:3, Acts 9:23, Acts 13:45, Acts 13:50, Acts 14:2, Acts 14:19, Acts 17:5, Acts 17:13, Acts 18:12, Acts 20:3, Acts 20:19, Acts 21:11, Acts 21:27, Acts 22:30, Acts 23:12, Acts 23:27, Acts 24:27, Acts 25:2, Acts 25:7, Acts 25:24, Acts 26:2, Acts 26:7, Acts 26:21, 2 Corinthians 11:26, Philippians 3:6, 1 Thessalonians 2:14)

This why 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 is so important. This passage is believed to be referring to the 2nd advent of Jesus Christ by partial-preterists and dispensationalists alike. I concur. But if one attaches the significance of audience relevance to that passage there is NO WAY for it to extend past the first century, let alone thousands of years into the future. Who was persecuting the Thessalonian church? It was the unbelieving 1st century Jews! See 1 Thess 2:14-16. What did the inspired apostle promise the church of Thessalonica? He promised them rest from their persecutions. When was this rest promised?
When the Lord Jesus would descend from heaven in flaming fire, that's when!

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 - And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

This is a picture of judgment against those unbelieving Jews for what they had done to the Lord's apostles, to Jesus Christ and to His church. Revelation is that whole scene pictured in the most symbolic of language.

Yes, I realize this raises many questions if what I said is true. But I cannot escape the first century audience relevance, and believe me, I tried!

If we presuppose planetary and world-wide judgment, then we will interpret the Scriptures accordingly and find ingenious devices to explain away all the clear time statements (at hand, near, must shortly come to pass, I come quickly, this generation, last hour, judge standeth at the door, etc.) to mean anything but what they meant to those first century saints as the words rolled off the lips (or epistle) of the ones who said them...anything.

And lastly, what Jesus said in Matthew 5:18 can be better understood if an appropriate understanding of heaven and earth is reached. He said:

Matthew 5:18 - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

If heaven and earth (OT economy) has not passed, then we (or someone else) should still be living according to every jot and tittle of the law - including the sin offerings and sacrifices. But since the temple was destroyed almost 2,000 years ago, it makes it IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to follow the law. That is why the heaven and earth is not referring to the physical universe!

Good luck to you on your journey. I truly wish you the best.

[RV]

Good luck to you on your journey. I truly wish you the best.

Why can't we work through it together Mellontes? Isn't that what this forum is for?

I agree that we all should do our own study... but lets face it, that doesn't always lead us to the same place. I like the idea of doing our own study but sharing what we've learned and be humble enough to consider what others have discovered.

RV

[Mellontes]

Good luck to you on your journey. I truly wish you the best.

Why can't we work through it together Mellontes? Isn't that what this forum is for?

I agree that we all should do our own study... but lets face it, that doesn't always lead us to the same place. I like the idea of doing our own study but sharing what we've learned and be humble enough to consider what others have discovered.

RV

What has your independent study of the "heaven and earth" revealed to you so far? What passages have you examined so far? May I recommend Deuteronomy 31:24-28?
Hear is a lengthy thread regarding similar content from my original post - http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1266. I haven't read all the posts, but what I have read is interesting. It might even change your present perspective...
What part of my last post did you not understand or disagree with?
Why would Peter's usage of the "elements" be any different than that of Paul's, especially in light of 2 Pet 3:15-16?

I look forward to your responses either publicly or by private message...

[RV]

I haven't really look at this passage that much.

I always assumed I guess, that it was talking about the physical earth because it said that righteousness would dwell in the new heaven and earth.

But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. 2 Pet 3:13

If you could Mellontes, could you tell me a little bit more about this "righteousness" that dwells in the new heavens and new earth?

What was Peter talking about?

This will be the start of my independent study on this.

[Mellontes]

I haven't really look at this passage that much.

I always assumed I guess, that it was talking about the physical earth because it said that righteousness would dwell in the new heaven and earth.

But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. 2 Pet 3:13

If you could Mellontes, could you tell me a little bit more about this "righteousness" that dwells in the new heavens and new earth?

What was Peter talking about?

This will be the start of my independent study on this.

I think the only way this can be properly done is if you answer a few questions at a time. 2 Peter 3:13 mentions "His promise."

1. I need for you to locate that promise.
2. To whom was that original promise made?
3. To whom is Peter writing to?

[RV]

I think the only way this can be properly done is if you answer a few questions at a time. 2 Peter 3:13 mentions "His promise."

1. I need for you to locate that promise.
2. To whom was that original promise made?
3. To whom is Peter writing to?

If you could Mellontes, could you tell me a little bit more about this "righteousness" that dwells in the new heavens and new earth?

What was Peter talking about?

[Mellontes]

I think the only way this can be properly done is if you answer a few questions at a time. 2 Peter 3:13 mentions "His promise."

1. I need for you to locate that promise.
2. To whom was that original promise made?
3. To whom is Peter writing to?

If you could Mellontes, could you tell me a little bit more about this "righteousness" that dwells in the new heavens and new earth?

What was Peter talking about?

I don't know what your point was in requoting what we said...there is little point in explaining anything if some ground work is not established. It would be like talking about valences and coefficients to a grade 2 student. This is not a derogatory remark. One must establish what the heaven and earth are before one can even remotely understand how righteousness dwells in it. You really need to do your own study on the heaven and earth. I asked three relatively simple questions and get nothing in return. I'm sorry if this is not what you want...but there is no other way. Do the work, or not. I am not here to push. Not everyone is open and not everyone is ready...

[steve7150]

I always assumed I guess, that it was talking about the physical earth because it said that righteousness would dwell in the new heaven and earth.

But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. 2 Pet 3:13

If you could Mellontes, could you tell me a little bit more about this "righteousness" that dwells in the new heavens and new earth?

What was Peter talking about?





RV,

I'm not a preterist but i'll take a partially educated guess. Perhaps the new heavens and earth may be the New Covenant and in it righteousness dwells through Christ himself.