Universalism and the Character of God

[Guest]

Hello Homer,

A question I would like to add to yours for our CU friends, is what Jesus
meant in John 8:24; "unless you believe that I am He (the Messiah), you will die in your sins"..

From the CU position, what does it mean "to die in your sins"?

[Guest]

Homer,

You say you want facts. But how do you establish the "truth" of the "facts" you have quoted? Were you an eye witness to any of them? You are relying on the veracity of these facts, based on the reliability of the person(s) who recorded these events, as well as on those who copied the original documents, and those who translated them into a language you can understand.

In many cases where we see God's judgment, we are not told very much about why it happened. Often it seems that the judgment is not so much a punishment of the wicked, but a preservation of the elect (to keep Israel or the church pure).

For whatever reason, it seems God has not given up on His plan of creation. He still has a reason to keep the "experiment" going. From time to time He seems to step in to keep the plan on the path He desires.

You asked for some "facts". Well if what you are looking for is examples of God's judgments that were redemptive in nature, it seems there is an interesting story in 1 and 2 Corinthians, of a man who had his father's wife. Paul instructed the church to deliver that one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that he might be saved. We later read of the success of this judgement.

You mentioned the children of Israel in the desert, who were not allowed into the land because of their rebellion and unbelief. We know of 2 of those who died in the wilderness (Moses and Aaron) who refused to hallow God among the people, were judged by not allowing them into the land, yet I suspect you believe we will be seeing them again one day. The fact that they were kept out of the promised land did not indicate that God was finished with them.

I can tell you from my own personal experience (would that qualify as a "fact"?) that God judged me by allowing me to reap what I sowed. He even warned me repeatedly before the "final" judgment (each time I "repented", only to turn back when the judgment passed). Yet finally, he took away from me my family and refused to give it back. Even when I repented again. He knew better. I am grateful now for His judgment.

The Bible indicates that when our Lord's judgments are on the earth, the world learns righteousness (Is. 26:9). Perhaps this means that the one's who survive learn righteousness from the judgment on others. Does this indicate that God's judgment's on Sodom was so that others would see and avoid making the same mistake?

You know, I find an interesting story told by our Lord in Matthew (11:20ff), where Jesus condemned the cities where He had been doing His miracles for not repenting, and compared them to previous cities that had been judged. What I find interesting is that He said that if His mighty works had been done in those previous cities (Tyre, Sidon, Sodom), they would have repented and not been judged. Why is this interesting? Why would God, knowing that the cities would repent under certain circumstances, not have brought those circumstances to pass? Does He not want everyone to repent?

I do not know why God does things the way He does them. I sometimes feel we argue over small bits of data and try to draw huge conclusions from them. God has revealed small pieces of the puzzle and we try to say what it will look like when all the pieces are put together.

You say you want facts. Why? There is not anything I can say that will convince you of CU. I know that. For me, personally, I take comfort in what seems to me to be the possibility that it is true. I think of the three views (I am aware of) that pertain to "Hell" and the "final" judgment of God, CU makes the most sense to me. And it seems that from scripture we cannot eliminate it as a possibility. You seem to think that scripture is clear that it is not true. I do not. I am fine to leave it that way.

(But I wish both sides in the debate would play nicer! Accusing one side or the other of wishfull thinking, taking scriptures out of context, listening to lies from satan, poor interpretive practices, USING BOLD AND UNDERLINING TO MAKE POINTS - are we not all serving the same Lord? Are we not all brothers/sisters? Can we not treat each other with respect? Can we not all realize we are fallible, and that we too can be mistaken?)

(BTW: Homer, that was not directed at you!)

Blessings in Christ!

Mike

[Guest]

But I wish both sides in the debate would play nicer!

Thanks, Mike, for that reminder.

[Guest]

I see many times where he has destroyed the wicked with no possibility of their reconciliation.

Well Homer, yes and no.

God obviously has destroyed the wicked at times although most often he has not. But i have yet to see anywhere in the bible your theory of no possibility of reconciliation since EVERYONE gets resurrected.
Everyone gets resurrected, everyone faces judgement , and the wicked face "krisis" which allows for the possibility of reconciliation.
So where are the facts for your theory?

[Guest]

From the CU position, what does it mean "to die in your sins"?

Exactly what it says Bob, that you die unsaved and not fit for heaven, at the time of your physical death. That will be the condition of 99% of mankind at death.

[Guest]

As we are all painfully aware, the scriptures you listed are true



BTW the scriptures Todd listed are not painful to me but give me hope.

[Guest]

CU worships a King at the altar of its own making. Christian Universalism is a sham and a lie from the enemy and should be exposed as such.
As I have said before, its the same old lie as told in Eden by the Serpent,
"You shall surely not die".. The lie has been just regurgitated and repackaged !

Bob, Your eternal torment compatriots also say "you will not die" as you remain in hell to be tormented forever.
Any thoughts?

[_Rick_C]

Re: on dying in your sins.

1 Cor 6 (NASB)
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

What's the CU (Christian Universalist) position on people who die in any of the above sins?

They will be saved without having the Spirit of the Living God?

They have no need to be "set apart" (sanctified) as members of God's Holy and Special People (aka, the elect)?

Do they not need the washing of the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ?
To be "put in the right with God" (justified, sins forgiven) through His blood?

How much adultery, sex perversion, stealing, alcoholism, addictions (idolatry), cheating, violence, strife, worshiping idols or false gods, sorcery, greed, terror, etc., etc., are they allowed to get away with? when Paul says Christians (above) can't get away with ANY of them?

CU is antinomianism ("against law", permitting, if not advocating, a freely sinful and ungodly lifestyle, that it's okay & just fine).

Have I been deceived (verse 9) that I HAD to STOP being an alcoholic to inherit God's kingdom? Maybe if I backslide and reject Jesus I can get drunk and still 'make it'? (if The Rules don't apply to unbelievers).....BALONEY!

Now, Origen, Talbott, and others might have their own ideas about these people. Me, myself, I think I'll go with what Paul sed....

And David too....
Psalms 11 (NASB)

4The LORD is in His holy temple; the LORD'S throne is in heaven;
His eyes behold, His eyelids test the sons of men.
5The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked,
And the one who loves violence His soul hates.
6Upon the wicked He will rain snares;
Fire and brimstone and burning wind will be the portion of their cup.
7For the LORD is righteous, He loves righteousness;
The upright will behold His face.

Rick

[Guest]

Rick

How about Gal. 5:21..."I warn you as I did before, those who live like this will not inheirit the Kingdom of God."

Seems rather plain to me.

[Guest]

Steve7150,

I think I said Conditional Immortality is where I was leaning, i.e. eternal annihilation. Not quite there yet, but almost...