Universalism - any good books?

Post by **_Seth** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:49 pm

Thanks for all the replies...now I'll be busy trying to knock off all these books. I tend to average about one a week, but it may take some time to collect them. My public library is sorely lacking books on this topic.

BTW, I found a link that some here might find interesting:

The Universalist Christians Association

Post by **_Paidion** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:20 pm

I am just now reading "The One Purpose of God" by Jan Bonda (which Todd mentioned). It is pretty powerful.

Another one worth reading is "Hope Beyond Hell" by Gerry Beauchemin.

Post by **_Paidion** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:45 pm

The word "perish" comes from the Greek word apollumi which means to destroy utterly, kill, slay, to demolish, waste, to perish utterly. That doesn't sound too hopeful to me.

"Gold which perishes (or "is destroyed") through fire" I Peter 1:7

Is gold "destroyed utterly" or "annihilated" by fire? No. Only the original form of gold is destroyed - the raw ore. The fire causes the pure gold to come forth.

Other passages using the word "apollumi" also seem not to indicate "utter destruction":

"You [Israel] shall surely perish" [apollumi in LXX]. Deut 32:39.
Yet Israel still exists to this day.

"... the wineskins are ruined [apollumi]..." Mark 2:22

When new wine is put into old wineskins, the wineskins will burst, and are therefore ruined. But are they "utterly destroyed"? Annihilated?

Post by **_Benzoic** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:10 am

What language was Deut originally written in? Greek?

"These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire" 1 Pet 1:7

No. Only the original form of gold is destroyed - the raw ore.

Yes, and so is that raw ore apollumi, is it utterly destroyed?

"... the wineskins are ruined [apollumi]..." Mark 2:22

When new wine is put into old wineskins, the wineskins will burst, and are therefore ruined. But are they "utterly destroyed"? Annihilated?

The wine skins don't cease to exist, but the wineskins are ruined/destroyed and permanently degraded, which brings us back to our good old friend kolasin, which Jesus used to describe eternal "punishment" in matt. 25:46. They will be eternally kolasin or degraded, cut short.

I never stated that the word apollumi means annihilation. There could be an ongoing process of utter destruction that never ends. In John 3:16, Jesus came why? So that the people who believe may not be subjected to apollumi. We can't twist that verse around and make apollumi sound good - it is not good and it is something to be feared. This is obviously debatable, but I believe Jesus stated in Mark 14:21 that it would have been better for Judas never to have come into existence (ginomai) because of the above reason stated in John 3:16. Thank you Jesus for saving me!

If Judas would ultimately be saved and share in the glory of God, why would Jesus say such a thing in Mark 14:21?

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:51 am

What language was Deut originally written in? Greek?

Deuteronomy was, of course, written in Hebrew. It was translated into Greek several centuries before Christ. This Greek translation (the Septuagint, commonly abbreviated as LXX) seems to be the translation used by most of the New Testament writers when they quoted the Old Testament writings. The LXX used the word "apollumi" in the quoted verse, stating that Israel shall surely perish. It has never perished to this day.

Yes, and so is that raw ore apollumi, is it utterly destroyed?

It seems that the raw ore is utterly destroyed, all right. However, the pure gold comes forth. So it is with the aeonion destruction of the lost.
Their evil natures are utterly destroyed, and their new Godly natures shall come forth.

This is the baptism of fire which Jesus has provided for man:

Matthew 3:11 "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
Luke 3:16 John answered them all, "I baptize you with water; but he who is mightier than I is coming, the thong of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

"I came to cast fire upon the earth; and would that it were already kindled! I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how I am constrained until it is accomplished!" Luke 12:49-50

And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. For every one will be salted with fire. Mark 9:47-49

Post by **_Derek** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:12 am

Benzoic,

There could be an ongoing process of utter destruction that never ends.

Do you not think that this statement is contradictory? Utter destruction that never ends? How could it be "utterly" destroyed then? How could something be said to even be "destroyed" if it never in fact suffers destruction? (In case you can't tell, I lean toward annhilationism).

God bless,

Post by **_Rae** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:15 pm

Paidion (and any other Universalists)... I would like to hear your response to Benzoic's question about Judas. How could it have been better if he would have never been born if eventually he too would be reconciled?

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:33 pm

Paidion (and any other Universalists)... I would like to hear your response to Benzoic's question about Judas. How could it have been better if he would have never been born if eventually he too would be reconciled?

A couple of things come to mind. The first is though i believe a person can be saved after physical death through the lake of fire purication process, it isn't necessary for me to believe every single person ever born will be saved.
Whether we like it or not, the fact is a lot of hyperbole is used in the bible and the word "all" may mean "majority" rather then every last person.
Or if everyone does get saved eventually, then Jesus may mean that Judas's purification process will be so painful for him that he may wish he were never born when he is in the process.
Jesus will be our judge and tormenting someone forever is simply contrary to his character and contrary to how he asks his followers to be. We are supposed to love our enemies while conforming ourselves to be like Christ , yet we are told that Christ will torment his enemy forever?
If that's true then i would ask which Christ should we follow?

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:53 pm

Paidion (and any other Universalists)... I would like to hear your response to Benzoic's question about Judas. How could it have been better if he would have never been born if eventually he too would be reconciled?

I think it could be said of anyone who will be cast into Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, that it "it would be good for him if he had never been born." For if such a one had never been born, he would not have to suffer the excruciating pains of Gehenna, possibly for ages of ages.

It is well possible, that the suffering in Gehenna may vary according to the the evil that one does, for "[God] will render to every person according to his works" Romans 2:6. This suggests that the sentence is not the same for everyone. Jesus also teaches this in the following passage in which even God's servants must be corrected, some of whom will even be placed in Gehenna with the unfaithful:

And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise steward, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes will find so doing. Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.

But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the unfaithful.

And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating.

But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating.

Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more.
Luke 12:42-48

It would appear that Judas, having betrayed the Son of God --- the Messiah, will receive a more severe correction in Gehenna.

God knows exactly what each one needs.

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:35 pm

Rae,

Paidion and Steve7150 take a more standard Universalist approach which includes punishment in hell after death for a finite period of time. I have a different view.

I personally believe that God punishes no one after they have died, but that all His punishments upon the wicked and disobedient happen during their lifetime. In Judas' case, he was so tormented in his soul by what he had done that he took his own life. His own actions caused him to be in complete and utter misery such that he could no longer live with himself. Perhaps this is what Jesus was referring to. It is my belief that this is what being "cast into the Lake of Fire" is referring to, and is also what John the Baptist meant when he said that Jesus would baptize with fire. This punishment is "everlasting" in the sense that it will continue unabated so long as the sinner does not repent, or until death.

Todd