Steve Gregg on Atonement

[Guest]

Mark,

So you see the atonement as a sort of commercial transaction? That when Jesus exclaimed "It is finished" that He meant He had suffered just enough, no more, no less, than the exact amount required to "pay" for the sins of the elect? Who got payed?

Mat 20:28 "just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

1Co 6:20 For you were bought at a price ; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.

Act 20:28 "Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

are the terms Ransom, Bought, Price, and purchased. "Commercial" terms?

[Guest]

The idea of Christ having died to appease the wrath of an angry God has been, from early times, a primary aspect of religious practice.

Appeasing sacrifices have never been desired or required by the living God, though, as a concession, he permitted them to the Israelites who often copied the religious practises of other nations, just as he allowed them to have a king as other nations had, though he lamented, "You would not have me to rule over you."

You may want to consider my article on another thread concerning offerings and sacrifices:

http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.php?t=793

Could you point out where the Israelites asked for blood sacrifices as they requested a king?

[Guest]

Appeasing sacrifices have never been desired or required by the living God

I am new here. Are you a born again Christian?

I am discussing these matters with some who appear to have no idea what the atonement is all about.

The essential and vital fact of the atonement is that God decidedly demands a blood sacrifice, and yet some here would deny this.

What on earth was that "mercy seat" contained within the Ark of the Covenant", with the tablets of the Law and the veil and the Cherubs and the presence of God within the veil upon the mercy seat in the Holy of Holies all about?

The very word "Propitiation" means "mercy seat".

Some are denying the vital doctrine of the blood shed for sinners!
How scary a picture is that?
How close is a denial of God desiring blood sacrifice to people being guilty of denying the God that bought them? (2Pe 2:1)

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood, and without shedding of blood is no remission.

In the article cited by Paidon, it is stated,

Chapter Three
Offerings and Sacrifice

The first offerings to God were those of Cain and Abel. Did God require these offerings? Did He ever ask for them, or suggest them? There is nothing in the Scriptures indicating that He did.

Are you missing the simple fact that God Himself in the garden after the fall, was the one who instituted the first sacrifice as a way of finding communion with God.
God killed an animal and clothed Adam and Eve in their skins.
The precedent was set for the future means for blood sacrifice as "the way" a sinner can approach a Holy God.

With regards to Cain and Abel, the knowledge of how to approach the Living God had been taught to them. One of them approached with a blood sacrifice as was the way God established, the other by the works of his own hands, the fruits of his own sweat, which is an abomination to God.

Anyone missing the blood sacrifice that God desires for appeasement has missed Christ and the whole good news of the Gospel.

I could not get through the "works" article cited above and ceased reading it half way through.
Whatever it was, it wasn't Christian.

Mark

[Guest]

Some are denying the vital doctrine of the blood shed for sinners!
How scary a picture is that?
How close is a denial of God desiring blood sacrifice to people being guilty of denying the God that bought them? (2Pe 2:1)


God did demand a blood sacrifice but not for appeasement but to deliver us from the kingdom of darkness so that we can now be citizens in heaven.
In the OT the blood sacrifice was actually for UNINTENTIONAL SINS not for the forgiveness of intentional sins which are the more serious type of sin.

[Guest]

If my thought is correct that Christ's blood purchased us from Satan's authority my question was why did it take the shedding of blood. It's generally believed that the shedding of Jesus's blood is related to the blood sacrifices in the OT yet those sacrifices only cover unintentional sins so perhaps there is another reason.
In John, Jesus said "there is no greater love then laying down your life for your friends" and i think that maybe it was'nt God's wrath that demanded the shedding of blood but rather God's love in that He did'nt just tell us that we should lay down our lives , but HE was willing to actually do it FOR US, while we were yet sinners.

[Guest]

BTW i was really not correct about blood sacrifices in the OT being only for unintentional sins because on Yom Kipper after the sprinkling of blood in the Holy of Holies the High Priest confessed ALL the sins of Israel over the scapegoat and then it was led out into the desrt to be killed by a wild animal and have it's blood spilled. (Lev 16).

[Guest]

Beneiah,

Read your post. You neglected to answer my question: who got paid?

[Guest]

Beneiah,

Read your post. You neglected to answer my question: who got paid?

Homer,

The only one who could be paid is the one to whom all souls belong.

Eze 18:4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.

[Guest]

If Jesus PURCHASED us through his sacrifice to give us LIFE then he must have purchased us from the one who has the power of DEATH over us. The bible is clear about who has the power of death over us.

"through death He might DESTROY him that has the power of DEATH, that is the DEVIL." Heb 2.14

[Guest]

Steve 7150, please don't dignify that enemy of our souls by suggesting that a price had to be paid to him, in order for Jesus to save us from sin.

He thought he was the greatest. In his self-aggrandization, presumed that all the kingdoms of the world were his to give ---- wanted to be like God Himself, and yet be independant from Him. NOPE. Satan didn't own the people of the world, either. That also is his delusion, and he'd like to get everyone to believe he did so that he could steal a bit more of the glory that belongs to God alone. No price had to be paid to the devil! And none was.