What is the purpose for "Believing?"

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_TK
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Post by _TK » Sat Jan 27, 2007 9:13 am

rick wrote:
I've heard people from this church talk a lot about "getting my rewards" as if , well, they seem to be really looking forward to this! (I could never follow such reasoning...will not the Presence of God Almighty and of His Christ be good enuf? I don't care one bit how many crowns I get)....Just give me: Jesus!
i used to think like this, until after reading the gospels over and over again it became clear that Jesus EXPECTS us to expect rewards, and to live our lives accordingly.

TK
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_Father_of_five
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Post by _Father_of_five » Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:18 am

mad,

I think we are now getting close to where I was headed with this question. You quoted the following verses.

2 Cor 4:14
because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence.

2 Cor 5:1
Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

We have this as a promise from the Lord - resurrection from the dead in a new body. Here is the question... Does this promise come as a result of our belief in it?...or does the fact of the resurrection, and our faith in His promise of it, result in our changed lives making us happier, productive servants in the Kingdom of God?

In other words, is the promise of a resurrected body conditional on our believing it?...or is it a fact (whether we believe it or not) and only in our believing can we be set free from a sinful lifestyle to serve God?

From the same passage in 2 Cor 4 we read...

2 Cor 4:15
All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.

Steve wrote:Believing these things is what makes it possible to surrender with full abandon to His sovereignty--the only terms by which we can be in relationship (read, "salvation") with Him.
Todd
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_mad
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Post by _mad » Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:40 am

FoF Wrote:

Here is the question... Does this promise come as a result of our belief in it?...or does the fact of the resurrection, and our faith in His promise of it, result in our changed lives making us happier, productive servants in the Kingdom of God?
This is a good question. I don’t think the promise comes as a result of our belief, but rather it is a condition of the promise. This doesn’t have to be the case. God can make unconditional promises if he wants to do so, but I find most of them are conditioned on various things. So we need to find out what God says about the resurrected body. Jesus says in John 6:40:

40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

We also receive the Spirit by faith (Gal 3 (esp. v 14) and elsewhere), which was the deposit guaranteeing what was to come (the new body) in 2 Cor. 5:5. So I understand the promise to be conditioned on faith. This isn’t a bulletproof treatment of the subject by any means, but I understand this to be the teaching of Scripture at this point in time. There may be a promise of an “eternal house” (2 Cor 5:1) for the unbeliever as well, and from what I read of your posts from other threads I would guess you would be inclined to say that is the case. I can’t establish that from Scripture at this point. I hope that is the case.

So how does this work? Does faith cause the Spirit to give us rebirth? If we look at Abraham and the role faith played in his dealings with God, we see a mix of commands, promises, and action. In Gen 12 we see God tell Abram to go to Canaan, then promise to bless him and the world through him (Side note: We later see that we are the recipients of that blessing through the Spirit in the Gal 3 passage.). Abram packed up and went, and Heb. 11:8-11 says this was because he believed God’s promise, which is called faith there.

So as I see it, God promises something, and those who believe Him act on that promise in whatever way is consistent with the promise. If I tell someone I will buy them lunch if they will meet me at some restaurant at some time, they will do certain things if they believe me (like get in their car and drive to the restaurant, for example). If they don’t believe me, they will keep doing whatever. (This presupposes that they WANT lunch with me, of course. Not a forgone conclusion. I might talk to them about my whacky views on faith after all…) I think faith in God is similar.

I have a hard time explaining this. I must not understand it well, yet.

Blessings.
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_Father_of_five
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Post by _Father_of_five » Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:12 am

mad wrote:I don’t think the promise comes as a result of our belief, but rather it is a condition of the promise. This doesn’t have to be the case. God can make unconditional promises if he wants to do so, but I find most of them are conditioned on various things. So we need to find out what God says about the resurrected body. Jesus says in John 6:40:

40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

We also receive the Spirit by faith (Gal 3 (esp. v 14) and elsewhere), which was the deposit guaranteeing what was to come (the new body) in 2 Cor. 5:5. So I understand the promise to be conditioned on faith.
mad,

I will agree that "eternal life" is given conditionally - that we must believe and follow Christ in faith. I think though that there is a difference between "eternal life" and the resurrection of the body. There is no condition for the resurrection of the body. Christ has secured that for all of mankind. I will attempt to explain what I believe "eternal life" is.

It is commonly taught that eternal life is what someone has after his body has been resurrected, that, even though his body was once dead he will now live forever in heaven. I do not believe that this the correct understanding. What I just described is immortality, not eternal life - they are different.

While immortality has to do with the condition of your body, eternal life has to do with the condition of your soul. God told Adam and Eve not to eat the forbidden fruit saying, "for when you eat of it you will surely die" (Gen 2:17). But when they ate, it was not their bodies that died, it was their souls. Ezekiel explained further about this concept saying, "the soul who sins shall die" (Ez 18:5). Paul, describing someone who lived selfishly said, "But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives" (1 Tim 5:6). Her soul was dead while her body still lives. By contrast, someone who lives by faith in Christ, has eternal life - that is, their soul is alive, they are not overcome by sin. Eternal life describes the condition of one's soul while he lives on this earth.

When Jesus said, "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die" (John 11:26), was He speaking of the body or of the soul? He must have been speaking of the soul because all believers will die physically (unless Christ returns before their death). So, the idea of "eternal life" is a different concept from "immortality" and the resurrection of the body.

So, what is eternal life? Jesus described it this way.

John 17:3
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

He says it is knowing God and Jesus. To know Him is to understand His promises and to live your life in faith. Someone who lives their life in this manner will be spiritually blessed by God. The fruits of the Spirit are God's blessings given to those who have eternal life, which may be better understood as "abundant life."

John 10:10
....I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

In conclusion, the purpose of believing (and of faith), is to receive from the Lord His blessings of abundant life (eternal life), that we may be active servants in the Kingdom of God spreading His love to the world. On the other hand, the resurrection of the dead will be experienced by all of mankind, whether they are believers or not (Acts 24:15). This is because Christ has reconciled the whole world (2 Cor 5:19).

Todd
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Post by _mad » Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:07 am

Hi Todd,

I think you are correct about the distinction between eternal life and the resurrection. I have noticed several passages in my search of the scriptures that seem to indicate that the believer is in a state of eternal life right now. I’ll have to ponder this some more. Thanks for the interesting thread.

God bless.
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