Should he change churches?

[_anothersteve]

Paidion wrote

My understanding is that the King James Version, and textus receptus itself had as their main sources, not the original languages, but Jerome’s Vulgate (405 A.D.)

I'm going by memory here... but I think Erasmus used the Greek Majority manuscripts. He only had a very small portion of them at his disposal though. This resulted in him needing to translate a small portion from the Vulgate...I think it was a few verses from Revelation.

Steve

[_anothersteve]

Steve Wrote

I am thinking of a young girl in the third grade. If I remember being that age, and my own children being that age, correctly, kids have not developed their independant critical thinking skills very thoroughly, at that stage. They tend to trust authorities (preferably their parents).

When we send children to school or take them to church, we are implying to them that those who speak to them in those situations are reliable and safe to learn from. I think a conflict between the views of the parents, and those of the teachers can be confusing to a child.

On the other hand, I do remember, in the second grade, disagreeing with my teacher about evolution...but, in my objections, I was not referencing anything my parents had directly told me on the subject. I was contrasting what the school was telling me with what I remembered of the opening verses of Genesis.

Of course, my parents had taught me to believe the Bible. The teacher backed-down when I questioned her, so I did not come away realizing that she did not believe in the Bible. If she had told me the Bible was not true, in contrast to what my parents had taught me, I am not sure what effect it would have had.

Thank you for your response Steve. I grew up in a pseudo Christian environment and when I was 11 or 12 our family stopped attending church altogether. We never discussed salvation and hardly talked about the Bible. Therefore, I sometimes question myself (as all parents do) on how I'm raising my 7 year old daughter. I have no reference points back to my childhood to remember how it was for me (same goes for my wife as well). Any insight from people who grew up in a Christian home is great.

When an issue of difference arises, I let her know that some questions are tough and many people have tried to figure it out and come to different understandings. I also let her know that as she gets older she can look deeper into the question for herself as well.

If anyone dosen't think this is a wise way to handle it, let me know!!

Thanks,
Steve

[Guest]

I grew up in a Christian home, and of course i am very thankful for that. but there may be a "danger"lurking there, specifically growing up thinking that one is a christian when actually that is not the case. as i was growing up, i knew the bible pretty well, believed all of it, knew the gospel, accepted it, etc. i was a good kid. but i never had a real "conversion" experience because i was always in the faith, so to speak. was i "saved" during my early years? i believe so, i.e. i had faith etc. but i drifted away rather easily during my late HS and college years. when i came back several years later, it was on much stronger ground.

i am not sure how to deal with this "problem" with my children. they know all the facts, and believe them, but i do not think they are true disciples, yet.

TK

[Guest]

Hello, Paidion,

My understanding is that the King James Version, and textus receptus itself had as their main sources, not the original languages, but Jerome’s Vulgate (405 A.D.)

I am wondering what exactly you mean by this statement. Could you elaborate?

Thank you,
Emmet

[Guest]

Quote:
"My understanding is that the King James Version, and textus receptus itself had as their main sources, not the original languages, but Jerome’s Vulgate (405 A.D.)"


This is not the impression I receive from the histories available to me. Erasmus used the Greek for most of the New Testament (which is why he initially would not include 1 John 5:7. It was in the Vulgate, but Erasmus could not find it in any of the available Greek manuscripts that he was using). One exception was the Book of Revelation. He had no good Greek manuscripts of the complete book, so he translated it from the Vulgate.

[Guest]

Hello, Paidion,

Quote:
My understanding is that the King James Version, and textus receptus itself had as their main sources, not the original languages, but Jerome’s Vulgate (405 A.D.)

I am wondering what exactly you mean by this statement. Could you elaborate?

Thanks for your question, Emmet. I am guessing that what you really want to know is not what I mean (the meaning seems clear) but how I justify this "understanding".

This was a guess I made, not as a result of reading statements to that effect, but from comparing translations based on these texts, which substantially agree with the Vulgate. Please see what I wrote in my previous post concerning two classes of translations.

The statement quoted above, about which you are inquiring was made in haste, and is an exaggeration. Certainly Erasmus translated the New Testament from the Greek manuscripts he had available to him in his time. However, later translations, including the King James, drew heavily from the Vulgate as well as from previous English translations.

There is a website from which you can obtain a great deal of information about translations of the New Testament. It is called Textual Criticism of the Greek New Testament. You can go to it by clicking here:

http://www.bible-researcher.com/title.html

Erasmus initially did an honest job, although he was pretty well coerced by the church of his day to adhere to tradition rather than Greek text.
I pointed out in my previous post that Erasmus had no Greek text available for Rev 22:19 and so he had no choice but to rely on the Vulgate. However, later Greek editors of the New Testament did have the Greek manuscripts available to them; yet they still translated "book of life" rather than "tree of life" in this verse. These editors had no excuse.
They preferred using the Vulgate rendering "book of life" to that of all Greek manuscripts "tree of life".

So when I made my extreme statement, I guess I was thinking of the fact that these translators, including the King James translators, even when not directly using the Vulgate as source of their translation, were often indirectly using it through the existing translations.

According to the website I mentioned, the King James Translators used as their sources a number of existing translations. Here is their statement:

The King James version, called the "Authorized Version" in England, was a revision of the Bishops' Bible on the basis of Beza 1598, with much direct borrowing from the English texts of Tyndale 1535 and of the Genevan Bible.

[Guest]

Hi, Paidion,

Thank you for your rapid response, and for clarifying!

Shalom,
Emmet

[Guest]

Hello! I rarely post on this forum, but I always enjoy reading and learning from everyone else.


I grew up in a similar situation as TK. I had faith as a child, but as a teenager departed from God by my immoral lifestyle, yet professed Christianity the entire time b/c I was misinformed as a child what salvation was. I had never been taught regeneration or repentance.

But back to the issue at hand:

I sent my son to a Christian school in kindergarten, and I had some concerns about what was being taught, mainly about the doctrine of salvation. He was so young, I do not think it affected him that much. He currently is in second grade, and I know legalism or false teaching would affect him. I am thankful that I am able to homeschool him now, where I am able to shape his doctrine. If he were in a Christian school, he would probably be reassured of his salvation, yet, I see no evidence of him being born again. I believe that is the greatest danger of Christian school, is a child understanding the marks of a true believer and conversion, not some modern idea that is being taught in most churches. I think a child being deceived and thinking he is "saved" is more dangerous than if he went to public school and did not profess Christ at all! Or, sending a child to Christian school to become a hypocrite, who follows a bunch of rules, and now thinks he is spiritual, rather than his focus being on Christ.

It is also very important to have the child's heart, or they will not trust you when you teach them spiritual things and discipline them. I had to pull my son out of Christian school for this reason. I did not have his heart.

I am not trying to condemn all Christian schools. I am sure there are some out there who teach truth with teachers who are truly born again.

Also, I fell into the "KJV only" camp, so I know firsthand the damages it did to my walk. I was even told that people who did not read KJV were not saved. I fell under this legalism, and yes, it was not only the KJV part that was skewed, but everything else was a list of rules to keep and the focus was not on Jesus. I became a Pharisee and I felt I was better than everyone else because I read the KJV, and kept my list of do's and dont's. I had no love for God or his actual words. I believe it can be idolatry to raise the translation itself above God. So, I would warn against those camps whose focus is on such petty matters and not on the two greatest commands of all or the giver of them.

~Lis