Universalism and not inheriting the kingdom of God

Post by **_MoGrace2u** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:56 pm

The balance to universalism would seem to be found in the passages that speak of "eternal punishment" and "2nd death" from which there is no return. Death and Hell are thrown into the lake of fire which is called the 2nd death. If the lake of fire is somehow remedial and after some point an exit from it is granted, then are death and hell reinstituted and the devil brought back as well? If the works of the devil are destroyed totally, then those who do his works without repentance have no recourse if they suffer the same fate he does. Otherwise, at some point in "eternity", the whole thing begins again!

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:53 pm

the problem, as brody pointed out, is that universalism is not directly stated in scripture; it must be inferred from various passages. the problem i have with this is that it would seem that something so important would have more direct teaching. for example, why didnt paul write something like: "the immoral and the idolators and the fornicators who do not repent before they die will suffer in the lake of fire until they repent. so repent now, to avoid the wrath of the Lord."

It's likely that Paul did'nt know about this since Revelation was'nt written till after his death. It's also interesting that Paul nor Peter wrote about eternal torment in hell , they apparently thought unbelievers would just perish as far as i can see.
As far as universalism being important , it is important to mankind as a whole but to the individual christian it depends on how they understand the justice of God. To some it does'nt matter, to some it's offensive and to others it seems just, to give many many people their first and only opportunity to ever know Christ.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:57 pm

I'm going to do some reading on that studying of that http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/univart.html site. Having had a quick look, I've been made aware of another pretty universal sounding statement:

Another universalism site is tentmaker.org

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:00 pm

JC wrote:....I think the Kingdom concept is what's in question here. I see the Kingdom as having been inagurated at the first coming of Christ and has been growing like a mustard seed ever since...

JC,

I agree with this statement. I am a Universalist, but I have a different idea of how it works than what you read on those universalism websites. I will attempt to summarize it in a few words.

Firstly, salvation from Christ comes in two parts - The first is salvation from death, which all will receive when He destroys death at his second coming. The second part is salvation from the punishment one receives in his lifetime for his participation in sinfulness. The latter is fully explained in Romans Chapter 1.

One way to explain is to "define" some of the terms that are used in scripture.

Eternal Life - refers not to the length of one's life but to the quality of it (John 17:3). One who has "an inheritance" in the Kingdom of God receives God's spiritual blessings (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self control).

Perish or Eternal Punishment - When someone is overcome in sin, he has perished and has died spiritually (1 Tim 5:6). Romans Chapter 1 explains what happens in this case. It says that God: "gave them up to uncleaness" (v.24), "gave them up unto vile affections" (v.26), "gave them over to a debased mind" (v.28 ). This is the same thing Revelation Chapter 20 is talking about when it says "cast into the Lake of Fire" (Rev 20:15). It is "eternal" in the sense that it will not abate for the rest of his lifetime unless the sinner repents.

Looking at it in this way clears up so many issues for me. "Eternal Security" makes sense when you consider that Christ conquered death for everyone. Yet at the same time it is possible to "return to your vomit" (2 Pet 2:22) by turning away from God's spiritual blessings and being overcome by sin once again. The punishment for sin lasts only as long as you live or until you repent.

Todd

Post by **_Derek** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:36 pm

Perish or Eternal Punishment - When someone is overcome in sin, he has perished and has died spiritually (1 Tim 5:6). Romans Chapter 1 explains what happens in this case. It says that God: "gave them up to uncleaness" (v.24), "gave them up unto vile affections" (v.26), "gave them over to a debased mind" (v.28 ). This is the same thing Revelation Chapter 20 is talking about when it says "cast into the Lake of Fire" (Rev 20:15). It is "eternal" in the sense that it will not abate for the rest of his lifetime unless the sinner repents.

Hi Todd,

I was wondering how you see this passage.

2Pe 3:7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
2Pe 3:8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

It seems that the heavens and earth that exist now are being kept until the day of judgement (the last day), which will coincide with the "destruction of the ungodly". The Lord is patiently waiting and holding off on this final day according to this passage, so that "none will perish" (on that day).

"Perish" and "destruction", here, seem to be something that happens on the last day as a result of "ungodliness".

How is it that this could be speaking of "spiritual death" only in this lifetime? The "perish" and "destruction" here, don't seem to be things that last only "as long as you live" here, but are rather the consequences of unrepentence while you live, and happens as a result of the final judgment, before everything is "burned up and disolved" to bring about the new heavens/earth.

God bless,

Post by **_Ely** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:29 pm

I know what you mean TK, and I agree, I think. These statements are minus any symbolic language and they are not be found in poetic or (as Mr Gregg might say) apocalyptic passages. They look like unambiguous statements barring the unrighteous from any inheritance the eschatological Kingdom. So what instead of inheritance?

For me Psalm 37 is instructive. The Psalm begins:

1 Do not fret because of evildoers,
Nor be envious of the workers of iniquity.
2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass,
And wither as the green herb.

The language here seems to be indicating a complete end of the wicked not the wickedness of the wicked. it is the wicked themselves who will be cut down like grass and then wither like green herb.

9 For evildoers shall be cut off;
But those who wait on the LORD,
They shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;
Indeed, you will look carefully for his place,
But it shall be no more.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth,
And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Here the bountiful inheritance of the meek is contrasted with the cutting-off of the wicked. Again, a complete end of the wicked seems to be in view.

18 The LORD knows the days of the upright,
And their inheritance shall be forever.
19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time,
And in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
20 But the wicked shall perish;
And the enemies of the LORD,
Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish.
Into smoke they shall vanish away.

Again the contrast is between the inheritance of the upright against the apparent complete end of the enemies of the LORD. The enemies themselves will vanish away into smoke.

If the wicked are indeed eventually going to inherit the Earth/ Kingdom, then David didn't seem to know anything about it (here at least).

Ely

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:53 pm

Derek wrote:<b>Todd said:</b>
Perish or Eternal Punishment - When someone is overcome in sin, he has perished and has died spiritually (1 Tim 5:6). Romans Chapter 1 explains what happens in this case. It says that God: "gave them up to uncleaness" (v.24), "gave them up unto vile affections" (v.26), "gave them over to a debased mind" (v.28 ). This is the same thing Revelation Chapter 20 is talking about when it says "cast into the Lake of Fire" (Rev 20:15). It is "eternal" in the sense that it will not abate for the rest of his lifetime unless the sinner repents.

Hi Todd,

I was wondering how you see this passage.

2Pe 3:7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
2Pe 3:8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
It seems that the heavens and earth that exist now are being kept until the day of judgement (the last day), which will coincide with the "destruction of the ungodly". The Lord is patiently waiting and holding off on this final day according to this passage, so that "none will perish" (on that day).

"Perish" and "destruction", here, seem to be something that happens on the last day as a result of "ungodliness".

How is it that this could be speaking of "spiritual death" only in this lifetime? The "perish" and "destruction" here, don't seem to be things that last only "as long as you live" here, but are rather the consequences of unrepentence while you live, and happens as a result of the final judgment, before everything is "burned up and disolved" to bring about the new heavens/earth.

God bless,

Hi Derek,

I see "The Day of Judgment" differently than the traditional view. I do not believe that this event is something that doesn't happen until after the physical resurrection of all mankind at Christ's return. The Day of Judgment started when Christ ascended to His throne and will continue until his return. The scripture you quoted says that "a day with the Lord is as a thousand years" so who is to say how long this "Day" will last.

Christ is our Judge. Those who follow Him in faith are judged worthy and receive His spiritual blessings. Those who reject him and follow after selfishness, lust, cruelty, and pride are punished. All things have been put in subjection to Christ.

Todd

Post by **_Derek** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:22 pm

I see "The Day of Judgment" differently than the traditional view. I do not believe that this event is something that doesn't happen until after the physical resurrection of all mankind at Christ's return. The Day of Judgment started when Christ ascended to His throne and will continue until his return. The scripture you quoted says that "a day with the Lord is as a thousand years" so who is to say how long this "Day" will last.

The "day... as a thousand years", is in reference to His promised coming.

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Peter is explaining why He hasn't come yet. He is being patient, and waiting "not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance" before the "day of the Lord".

2Pe 3:7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

It says "until the day of judgement" speaking of a future (at least to Peter and his audience) event. This was written after Jesus' ascended. Why is Peter speaking of an event in the future, if the "day" began when Christ ascended?

Also, Paul, in Acts 17:31, says that God "has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."

He will (future tense) judge the world on this day. This too, is speaking of a future "day".

I suppose we're derailing the thread a bit here. We may want to start another so this one can stay on topic.

God bless bro,

Post by **_Homer** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:52 pm

Universalism is one of the most poorly supported doctrines I have ever encountered. The greatest thing in its favor would seem to be wishful thinking (hey, even I wish it to be true).

The hallmark of the universalist expositor is inconsistency: at least they are consistent in being inconsistent. The exact same word, no less, means different things to them in the same sentence. Thus in Matthew 25:46 aionios punishment and aionios life mean a temporary state in one case and endless duration in the other (unless, that is, our universalist friends believe the hope of the saved is for a future temporary bliss)! Jesus made a contrast between "life" and "punishment". By every law of language the one state is the opposite of the other.

Jesus repeatedly gave warnings in contasting terms; Matt. 18:9 "life" vs. "everlasting fire"; 18:10 "life vs. hell fire"; Mark 9:43 "life" vs. "hell...the fire that shall never be quenched"; 9:45 "life" vs. "hell, into the fire that will never be quenched"; 9:47 "the kingdom of God vs. "hell fire". Whatever is meant by "life", the "kingdom of God", is opposite to hell (gehenna). Gehenna is never used as reference to a place of repentance or reformation.

The universalists assert the doctrine goes back to early Christianity. They do error, the history is much longer, we find it on the lips of the serpent in Genesis 3:4; "you will not surely die".

Again and again Rev. 22:17 is brought up as support for the universalist position when it is demonstrably proven that all things described in Revelation are not sequential. Not only that, a book written in figurative, apocalyptic language is used to interpret unambiguous statements elsewhere in scripture.

Post by **_JC** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:08 am

I don't believe the universalist doctrine is true, but cetainly wish to see all people come to repentence. My own view is different from every view I've ever heard expressed. I believe Christ will "judge each man according to his works" on the last day. Paul made this statement in reference to "the day God appointed." So, I believe that Christ will return at some point in the future and all men will give account of their works done on the earth.

Those who repented of their sins and had faith in Christ in this lifetime will inherit a reward and those who gave up more will gain more. On the other hand we have all those who never repented and continued to do evil. These people, I believe, will be giving a judgement against their deeds. Some peoples' deeds are worse than others and God is just. Therefore, I don't see all punishment as equal. I think some may be given a death sentence (they will perish from existence), some may be allowed into the fold (if they never heard the gospel but would've repented) and still others recieve another judgement. The bible simply tells us we'll be judged according to our works. Paul says that if we judge ourselves then we will not be judged by God. I think this means that we won't be judged on any act we've repented of.