purpose of prophecy

[Guest]

How right you are, Paidion.

The north american church has not had to face persecution. Ely just posted some examples of the types of persecutions our Christian brethren are facing throughout the world in the "Announcements" section. i think the average christian in america feels persecuted if they are asked to attend a special prayer meeting. i think we will indeed be woefully unprepared if persecution does strike us-- consider the following---

There’s something about suffering that reveals truth. Excuse me for speaking the nasty word; I know we’re not supposed to. I think that the word, suffering, is as much neglected as the word, Cross, and exactly for the same reasons. We live in a generation and a civilization that has no tolerance for pain. We think that ‘suffering’ is a sick subject, and anyone who introduces it must himself be, if not masochistic, a little psychologically bent. And yet, despite that, I have a strange sense that there’s something about the nature of suffering that is what the Cross is all about -- and that, unlike anything else, has the capacity to reveal truth in its starkest, deepest meaning. ‘Truly, this was the Son of God.’

The many Jesuses of today are soppy, sentimental and self-serving, a complete contradiction to the Christ Who suffered and died. And if God is to correct our image of Him -- which means also the correction of our image of ourselves -- it’s my conviction tonight that the only place where it can be done is at the Cross of Christ Jesus. Have you been there? Here is Truth suffering ultimately, and therefore the profoundest capacity to reveal Truth and set free. ‘You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.’ The real and pathetic condition of the lives of many Christians and the woeful condition of the Church, the enormous fascination of the world and its powerful influence on God’s people all testify to the fact that we have tragically avoided the Cross of Jesus...Paul said he gloried ‘only in the Cross of Christ Jesus, by which the world is crucified unto me and I unto the world.’ The single greatest factor that explains this fascination with the world and that it has compromised us all, that we reflect its fashions and its style, that its promotional spirit has come into our Christendom, that we’ve adopted its hairstyles and its trends, that it has all made a groovy accommodation with that which is called ‘Christianity’ even to the employment of its rock music and its amplifiers -- and I can go on down the list -- is all to be laid to one single factor -- the absence of the Cross in the experience of the lives of God’s people. Only the Cross can effectually crucify the world from us and we from it. The world is too much with us because the Cross has been neglected in our understanding and in our experience. Nothing less than the Cross can separate us from a world that is powerfully seductive, at enmity with God, and lying in the Wicked One. --Art Katz

TK

[Guest]

I fully agree with Steve's Aug 23 post, including the part about the Sermon on the Mount being more exciting that eschatology.

The fact that Steve is a preterist, and I a futurist, in no way divides us as brethren. Our fellowship as disciples of Christ rests not on our philosophical or theological beliefs, but upon our mutual intention to continue submitting to Christ and serving Him wholeheartedly.

An issue of much more import than one's escatological position is the character of one's beliefs about salvation from sin. Do we believe that through Christ's death we actually begin to be delivered from sin? Or do we believe that through Christ we acquire merely "positional righteousness"?

I agree also with Steve, that our eschatology has little or no relation to the manner in which we presently live our lives.

However, I do see a possible relation to our future lives. If the great tribulation period should begin to take place during our life time, both the preterists and the pre-trib rapturists will be mentally unprepared. The preterists will think, "This wasn't supposed to happen. I thought it all happened in 70 A.D." The pre-tribbers may be even more disturbed. Their immediate reaction may be"What's this? Did I miss the rapture or what?" Later they may observe, " I haven't heard any reports about millions missing. Was I wrong about the rapture after all?"

I also suspect that pre-tribbers may be less fit to face suffering even at the present time. Their mind set may be that God will deliver them out of suffering as He supposedly will deliver them out of the tribuation to come.

Paidion, I pretty much agree with you, except that it's a little hard to believe that in the midst of suffering a person would worry about being disappointed that his eschatology was incorrect.

I think that the best way to prepare for suffering is to learn and grow in what Jesus taught, like, for instance in the Sermon on the Mount. The more I trust God and submit to His will, the less I seem to be concerned about my circumstances. Hopefully that would be true during a time of extreme suffering as well.

Do you have any other ideas in mind about how to prepare for suffering? It doesn't seem like just knowing that hardship is coming helps very much. When a loved one has a terminal illness it still hurts when they pass away. Sometimes I know ahead of time that I will be short of money during certain times and even though I save for this time, it still seems difficult, maybe not as difficult as it would be if I were suddenly broke, but not easy either. So, are there any other ways to prepare for tribulation?

[Guest]

Michelle and others .

Simply put:

The only way I know of to prepare for extreme suffering is by walking daily with a close knit heart with the Lord. Keeping a mind set on how much He loves me, is my protector and "all this to shall pass" when it comes to the hurt. Glow

[Guest]

i agree, glow... i often wondered how i would respond if faced with the same extreme circumstances that some of the early martyrs did, or even the later ones. i guess we dont really know how we would respond unless we are actually faced with that situation.

i believe that if we are in a close walk with Jesus, then we would be given the grace necessary to triumph through suffering. reading corrie ten boom's story, it seems that she was given extra grace as her situation worsened, but she even noted that her sister seemed to be a greater testimony than she herself was.

suffering in our day and age, absent sickness or other pressing hardship, would seem to be tied to dying to ourselves. this is never easy-- AW Tozer described it thusly:

The ancient curse will not go out painlessly; the tough old miser within us will not lie down and die obedient to our command. He must be torn out of our heart like a plant from the soil; he must be extracted in agony and blood like a tooth from the jaw. He must be expelled from our soul by violence as Christ expelled the money changers from the temple. And we shall need to steel ourselves against his piteous begging, and to recognize it as springing out of self-pity, one of the most reprehensible sins of the human heart.

very few christians hear words like this from the pulpit any longer; they are simply not politically correct.

TK

[Guest]

Thank you TK, for your quotation from Art Katz.

Right now my wife is at the school Art is conducting at his community at Ben Israel. It is a two-week school. I will join her for the convocation on labour day weekend. I have been going to these convocations since 1978.

Recently Art has not been well. He was seriously ill, but much prayer has been offered on his behalf. So he has been able to lead the studies.

Actually, I met my wife in Ben Israel in the summer of 1998. We were married in the spring of 1999.

Art is hated by many Christian Zionists, and is not permitted to express his views among them. The reason seems to be that, though Jewish himself, Art does not agree that the present Jewish state is God's doing, and is a fulfillment of prophecy. Rather, he believes it to have resulted purely from human effort, and that the Jewish people who will not submit to Yeshua Ha Mashiach will suffer a severe judgment from God by which the Holocaust pales in comparison.

[Guest]

However, I do see a possible relation to our future lives. If the great tribulation period should begin to take place during our life time, both the preterists and the pre-trib rapturists will be mentally unprepared. The preterists will think, "This wasn't supposed to happen. I thought it all happened in 70 A.D." The pre-tribbers may be even more disturbed. Their immediate reaction may be"What's this? Did I miss the rapture or what?" Later they may observe, " I haven't heard any reports about millions missing. Was I wrong about the rapture after all?"


I think Paidion that the preterists would be a lot less disturbed then pre-tribbers since they simply don't rule out anything including some type of short tribulation before Christ returns. After all they believe Satan will be released for a short season before Christ returns, or maybe i'm just speaking of partial preterists.
Pre-tribbers, since they are waiting for an actual rapture before tribulation are more vulnerable to a major dissapointment if it does'nt happen.

[Guest]

Paidion--

i have listened to many dozens of Art's teachings and he has challenged me greatly over the past couple of years. i am amazed at how God keeps bringing different teachers into my life, thanks to the internet, to keep me challenged. I stumbled across Steve G's website quite by accident and have been blessed ever since, and also by this forum. I suspect that many people, like myself, don't have much outlet for deeper theological discussion.

i read on the Ben Israel site that Art was very ill but I am glad God has enabled him to teach. I never thought i would meet someone who has attended his seminars, but now i have!

You are right about Art's views on his jewish brethren-- he often says that he feels that until the Church reaches its intended glory that the Jewish people will never be moved to jealousy. how they view the Church now leaves much to be desired, which explains Art's desire to see the church return to its Apostolic glory.

TK

[Guest]

Steve said:

Pre-tribbers, since they are waiting for an actual rapture before tribulation are more vulnerable to a major dissapointment if it does'nt happen.

i tend to agree with you. if things that the "left behind" books start happening without a rapture, many Christians are simply going to "freak out", because they realize that they may have to live through the great tribulation, if in fact it is a literal 7 year period. either they will get off the ground, dust the dust off and rise to the occasion, or they will wallow in misery and ineffectiveness.

on a more cynical note, i am sure that if it turns out the rapture does NOT occur, then i am sure the Christian bookstores will be filled with texts on "how to survive the tribulation."

TK

[_Sean]

However, I do see a possible relation to our future lives. If the great tribulation period should begin to take place during our life time, both the preterists and the pre-trib rapturists will be mentally unprepared. The preterists will think, "This wasn't supposed to happen. I thought it all happened in 70 A.D." The pre-tribbers may be even more disturbed. Their immediate reaction may be"What's this? Did I miss the rapture or what?" Later they may observe, " I haven't heard any reports about millions missing. Was I wrong about the rapture after all?"


I think Paidion that the preterists would be a lot less disturbed then pre-tribbers since they simply don't rule out anything including some type of short tribulation before Christ returns. After all they believe Satan will be released for a short season before Christ returns, or maybe i'm just speaking of partial preterists.
Pre-tribbers, since they are waiting for an actual rapture before tribulation are more vulnerable to a major dissapointment if it does'nt happen.

I was about to say the same thing. The "little season" where satan is released could be worse than the tribulation of 70AD and extend to all nations. I fully expect the possibility of a future tribulation.

Freelancer,
Coming to a conclusion about the end times is not what we were saved for. Be a follower of Christ and read/study the bible for guidance in your everyday life in submission to Jesus. This is what we are here for. When eschatology becomes less important, and living for Christ is the main focus of your life I believe at that point eschatology becomes easier to understand. That's my opinion anyway.

[Guest]

Good stuff here. Besides Steve's radio program I've been listening and taking notes on his decipleship program downloaded from digital ministries every morning I would also like to suplement that with a verse by verse bible study but not sure which one. Any suggestions. I was also thinking of maybe starting with the sermon on the mount topical lecture as suggested here.