Worship Songs

[Otherness]

Dear Brother

Dizerner>>>You are equating the word "other" with the word "God." Those do not necessarily correlate. If God is "other" oriented, this means God is oriented on something OTHER than himself—patently false, because God receives the worship of all things. To put ANY "other" in the place of God is idolatry—it is taking his place. If you equate "other" with "God" in ALL circumstances, you should instead term it "God-centered."<<<

This elaboration of yours shows me where you are misconstruing my words. What I am saying is that God Himself – IN -- His own eternal Being (in that He is Triune), is Other-centered. That is, the Father [Who is other-than (not) the Son] is centered on (loves) the Son, and the Son [Who is other-than (not) the Father] is centered on (loves) the Father. This is the creative dynamic of God : this is God (as) the Creator. This is God “BEFORE” creation – there is NOTHING other than YHWH (again, before creation). So I couldn't be saying (in your words) “God is oriented on something OTHER than himself.” This dynamic of His Being is Love, thus is He (ontologically) Love. : God is Love : this is the Nature of our Creator.

Dizerner>>>People seem to often fall under the misapprehension that because God committed the ultimate sacrifice for humans, this means God "put humans first above himself."<<<

I am not saying that “God put humans first above himself,” but that in being the loving Creator that He is He FULLY INVESTED Himself in His creation of us. Having begun this creative process of birthing the Body of Christ this is now the WAY He exists for (in) eternity : the Body of Christ will now never not BE. We are the fullness Of Him Who fills all in all.

Dizeener<<<This is logically false—the whole reason God had to sacrifice at all was God's own established rules, God's own established holiness, God's own requirements for atoning sin, and God's desire to be glorified and share his glory—all God-centered. God's sacrifice was GOD-centered, and NOT "other-centered," which equates to valuing something above or equal to God.<<<

You misread what I am saying, but in any case I would go even further and say that to embark on the creative process to gain this Body of Christ for Himself He was willing to endure the pain and sacrifice He knew it could (would) cost Him.

[dizerner]

Okay brother, fair enough.

I apologize for misreading and appreciate your point.

I've often wondered if it were harder in some ways for the Father and Spirit to see Jesus bear God's wrath for sin. One of the ancient theologians speculated they may have each wanted to be the one who became the sacrifice.

[Homer]

Well, there is more that is problematic concerning the modern practice of worship than it being "all about you Jesus". Consider this:

Ephesians 5:19
New American Standard Bible 1995
19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;

Colossians 3:16
New American Standard Bible 1995
16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

Back in the old days there were many wonderful songs directed to "one another". They seem to have almost disappeared; we've cast the "one another" aside. Not an improvement.

[dizerner]

Okay, which is more Biblical and "anointed":

Old style:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhSOnw8a_AI

Modern style:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLTu1xv2-Us

Wow, too much focus on Jesus all around!!!

[dwight92070]

Okay, which is more Biblical and "anointed":

Old style:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhSOnw8a_AI

Modern style:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLTu1xv2-Us

Wow, too much focus on Jesus all around!!!

I thought they were both fantastic! They are both equally Biblical and equally "anointed"! They both honor and praise our Great God and our Great Savior Jesus, and the singers were filled with the Holy Spirit!!

[Homer]

Dizerner,

I wouldn't say either was more biblical or anointed. I'm not sure God is interested in any particular music style. In regard to Paul's words cited in my last post I would say this one fits perfectly with his instructions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvBvtIKZB60

The song is done in a modern style but the words were written more than 100 years ago by a woman who spent her life from childhood in a wheelchair. It originated in an a capella Church of Christ. Whether a capella or accompanied by instruments; I'm sure God looks on the heart.

[dizerner]

Homer, thank for you sharing that song. I am really enjoying it.

I liked very much your point that God is looking at the heart. Perhaps we argue a little too much about technical lyrics, when God is looking at the intent.

I know at times my "grip" has loosened, and I am glad that God holds on to me even before I hold on to him.

God bless you.

[dwight92070]

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:29 am

So if we're supposed to love Jesus more than our father, mother, husband, wife, brother, sister, son, daughter, and even our own life - and yet less than the Father, since Jesus is not God, according to you, Darin - could you please explain how that is done? How is that humanly possible to love the Father more than Jesus, since what Jesus requires is our utmost love? Or do you think that we should give Jesus equal or the same love as we give the Father?

So I thought I would run this by again, since Darin, for whatever reason, didn't answer it.

[darinhouston]

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:29 am

So if we're supposed to love Jesus more than our father, mother, husband, wife, brother, sister, son, daughter, and even our own life - and yet less than the Father, since Jesus is not God, according to you, Darin - could you please explain how that is done? How is that humanly possible to love the Father more than Jesus, since what Jesus requires is our utmost love? Or do you think that we should give Jesus equal or the same love as we give the Father?

So I thought I would run this by again, since Darin, for whatever reason, didn't answer it.

Do I love my children less than my wife? No. Different? Yes. It's not all or nothing. But, that's different. Phileo in the context of that passage contrasting one's love for the world vs. love and following Jesus has more to do with what one chooses to associate with and follow and hang out and prefer being with and so forth - it is an entirely different category than worship as God. It's not even best translated "love" as it leads to these sort of confusions. Apart from love, however, there is rightly a hierarchical order to worship itself. I'll have to think through how to explain this better but I think you're missing the point and trying too hard to take a specific teaching in one area and applying it to a completely different issue and context.

We have to also ask "why" Jesus could say that to them - if it was, indeed, because of his agency and because of his mission and ministry being from God and having the full authority of God behind it, then it would be equally true even if derivative and hierarchical. So, I'm not sure your question is as interesting to the point being discussed as you seem to indicate. It can be just as wrong to love mother more than Jesus even if it's right to love Jesus less than the Father. But, I believe I can love them equally even if my expression of that is to be towards the Father because of who He is. Jesus modeled that and always emphasized that. He never said they should love himself more than the Father - or even equally.

I guess I just don't get what you're after. And Jesus never said we are to give him our utmost love - more than the world, yes, but more than anything else? Including the Father? He never said that. In fact, he always said everything to him was to the glory of the Father.

I may have allegiance to the State of Texas but have a different sort of allegiance to the policeman who pulls me over or the judge or dog catcher. They have derivative agency and I may have great appreciation for what one does for me but when I'm merely considering the allegiance I have to the State, my honor and obedience to the policeman is different from the source of that authority and my allegiance to it from which it derives.

That's not very good and I'm not sure how to get at your question in a way that helps.

[dwight92070]

The only way you can love God and the Son of God equally is if the Father and the Son of God are equal. If the Son of God is not God, then He cannot deserve the same love that God deserves.

"He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and He who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me." Matthew 10:37
"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple." Luke 14:26

Jesus demands our utmost love.

"And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength."

God also demands our utmost love.