John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"
Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"
Hi Paidion,
See here: http://www.bcbsr.com/greek/gcase.html
Scroll down to "nominative for vocative".
See here: http://www.bcbsr.com/greek/gcase.html
Scroll down to "nominative for vocative".
- darinhouston
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Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"
Re: John 5:18, again, we stray from the John 20:28 episode. If you want to continue this, please consider adding a new topic.
Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"
.Homer wrote:Hi Paidion,
See here: http://www.bcbsr.com/greek/gcase.html
Scroll down to "nominative for vocative"
I did that very thing. And he presents the two verses that you offered: John 17:25 and Mark 9:19.
I have a book called "Analytical Greek New Testament". It contains the complete text of the United Bible Society's
Greek New Testament with an interlinear grammatical analysis of each word.
This indicates what I has stated in an earlier post—that the vocative case is used in both verses and NOT the nominative.
John 17:25 πατερ (father vocative) δικαε (righteous vocative)
Mark 9:19 γενεα (generation vocative) απιστος (unfaithful vocative)
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
- dwight92070
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Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"
I have no objection with you starting a new topic.
[moderator: starting new topic on John 5:18 -- https://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=6243]
[moderator: starting new topic on John 5:18 -- https://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=6243]
Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"
Paidion,
Here is the problem: The text specifically says, “And he [Thomas] said to him [Jesus].” Thomas is directly addressing Jesus. I don't think he was using a profanity.
Check the spelling, it is Kurios for Lord and Theos for God, both nominative. Vocative would be Kurie (Lord) Thee (God). How do you account for the spelling?
We have a nominative functioning as a vocative. This is the position of Bill Mounce, D. A. Carson, A.T. Robertson, R. C. H. Linski, and Henry Alford. I stopped looking after seeing their comments.
Here is the problem: The text specifically says, “And he [Thomas] said to him [Jesus].” Thomas is directly addressing Jesus. I don't think he was using a profanity.
Check the spelling, it is Kurios for Lord and Theos for God, both nominative. Vocative would be Kurie (Lord) Thee (God). How do you account for the spelling?
We have a nominative functioning as a vocative. This is the position of Bill Mounce, D. A. Carson, A.T. Robertson, R. C. H. Linski, and Henry Alford. I stopped looking after seeing their comments.
Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"
Again, there is no evidence so far of any other instance of a nominative functioning as a vocative.Homer wrote:We have a nominative functioning as a vocative. This is the position of Bill Mounce, D. A. Carson, A.T. Robertson, R. C. H. Linski, and Henry Alford. I stopped looking after seeing their comments.
I think the people you have listed make this claim because they, like some on this forum, want to believe that Thomas addressed Jesus as "God".
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
- dwight92070
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Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"
Dwight - Paidon and Darin will given you and I names of "scholars" all day long, and expect us to believe them, but when you present scholars, they are prejudiced and therefore not worth even listening too. I think the best scholars are the authors of scripture, themselves.Paidion wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 1:33 pmAgain, there is no evidence so far of any other instance of a nominative functioning as a vocative.Homer wrote:We have a nominative functioning as a vocative. This is the position of Bill Mounce, D. A. Carson, A.T. Robertson, R. C. H. Linski, and Henry Alford. I stopped looking after seeing their comments.
I think the people you have listed make this claim because they, like some on this forum, want to believe that Thomas addressed Jesus as "God".
Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"
Paidion, you wrote:
Also how are "Lord and "God" spelled, in Koine Greek, in nominative and vocative?
I also have the book you cited, the "Analytic Greek New Testament." Check out what they say of John 20:28, then Mark 15:34, "ho Theos mou, ho Theos mou ". They say it is nominative yet it is directly addressed to the Father.Again, there is no evidence so far of any other instance of a nominative functioning as a vocative.
Also how are "Lord and "God" spelled, in Koine Greek, in nominative and vocative?
- darinhouston
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Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"
I can't speak for Paidion, but I almost never quote scholars with an expectation that you believe them. For the most part, I only cite them when they are traditional Trinitarians who disagree with your position and even then pretty much only in response to you being dogmatic about a position and suggesting anything other than your own is just a creative innovation that no one would believe - this is done not to convince you, but to defend against the charge of innovation. I do sometimes also cite an "ARGUMENT" from a scholar when I find it convincing and well presented it instead of making the point myself in a less artful way. Once I recall citing one without reading it as thoroughly as I might and it was roundly (and fairly) criticized, and I acknowledged same.dwight92070 wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 2:40 pmDwight - Paidon and Darin will given you and I names of "scholars" all day long, and expect us to believe them, but when you present scholars, they are prejudiced and therefore not worth even listening too. I think the best scholars are the authors of scripture, themselves.Paidion wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 1:33 pmAgain, there is no evidence so far of any other instance of a nominative functioning as a vocative.Homer wrote:We have a nominative functioning as a vocative. This is the position of Bill Mounce, D. A. Carson, A.T. Robertson, R. C. H. Linski, and Henry Alford. I stopped looking after seeing their comments.
I think the people you have listed make this claim because they, like some on this forum, want to believe that Thomas addressed Jesus as "God".
- backwoodsman
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Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"
Would that include the scholars who translated the English Bible you read? Or are you fluent in Biblical Greek, Hebrew & Aramaic so you can read the Bible as the authors wrote it without the aid of scholars?dwight92070 wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 2:40 pmDwight - Paidon and Darin will given you and I names of "scholars" all day long, and expect us to believe them, but when you present scholars, they are prejudiced and therefore not worth even listening too. I think the best scholars are the authors of scripture, themselves.
It seems you haven't thought through your prejudice against scholars nearly as well as you think you have.