Greetings,
My name is Mike. I'm 51, married, have grown children, live in Vancouver WA (east end), am a seasoned Christian, somewhat introverted, looking for non-institutional fellowship/friendship in my local area. I have followed Steve's ministry since 2009 and agree with him on most things, including the drawbacks associated with the institutionalization of church. I'm hungry for something genuine when it comes to Christian fellowship and service. I'm praying to meet someone (or group of like-minded believers) nearby.
Looking for non-institutional fellowship in Vancouver WA
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Re: Looking for non-institutional fellowship in Vancouver WA
Mike, we live in Camas so maybe I could take you out to coffee or something to get to know each other. Would that work for you?
Don
Don
- jriccitelli
- Posts: 1317
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Re: Looking for non-institutional fellowship in Vancouver WA
I was just writing on this subject, and unfortunately I think the sad truth is that you will not find 'something genuine when it comes to Christian fellowship and service' in an institutionalized church. It can happen when the leadership actually helps and promotes genuine Christian fellowship and service, but the structure and prevailing belief is that The Pastors are heads of the Church, and the body must be content to sit in their pews every Sunday till they are put in their graves.
Finding true Christian community in a typical church on a Sunday is like trying to find a healthy home cooked meal at a drive up window. If people only knew what they were eating and being fed on a Sunday, compared to what true community and Life in the Body of Christ was actually meant to be. But we have to be quiet now because The Pastor is going to begin his sermon... so turn down the lights, close your bibles, grab your popcorn, turn off your cell phones, turn off to the people sitting all around you, focus on the stage and The Pastor...
Finding true Christian community in a typical church on a Sunday is like trying to find a healthy home cooked meal at a drive up window. If people only knew what they were eating and being fed on a Sunday, compared to what true community and Life in the Body of Christ was actually meant to be. But we have to be quiet now because The Pastor is going to begin his sermon... so turn down the lights, close your bibles, grab your popcorn, turn off your cell phones, turn off to the people sitting all around you, focus on the stage and The Pastor...
Re: Looking for non-institutional fellowship in Vancouver WA
Hi, Mike. I'm in Southern California, so I'm afraid I can't be of help in your search. I pray the Lord leads you to what you are seeking. What would genuine Christian fellowship and service be like, in your opinion?MikeC1963 wrote:Greetings,
My name is Mike. I'm 51, married, have grown children, live in Vancouver WA (east end), am a seasoned Christian, somewhat introverted, looking for non-institutional fellowship/friendship in my local area. I have followed Steve's ministry since 2009 and agree with him on most things, including the drawbacks associated with the institutionalization of church. I'm hungry for something genuine when it comes to Christian fellowship and service. I'm praying to meet someone (or group of like-minded believers) nearby.
- dwight92070
- Posts: 1550
- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am
Re: Looking for non-institutional fellowship in Vancouver WA
Responding to jriccitelli, my name is Dwight and I am new on the forum.
1 Timothy 3:1-7 tells us that if any man aspires to the office of an overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. Verses 4 and 5 tell us that he must be one who manages his own household well or he won't be able to take care of the church of God. Just as a father manages his family, so is an overseer or pastor supposed to manage the church of God. Jesus is the Head but the overseer is the shepherd of the flock under Him, which is clearly seen in Acts 20:28. One of the primary functions of the overseer is to teach. 1 Timothy 3:2 says that he must be able to teach. If God has called him to be an overseer and a primary function of an overseer is to teach, then it behooves us to listen to his teaching.
Does this mean that we accept everything that he says, no questions asked? Of course not, we test everything against the standard of the Bible. Here is a sad thing with many Christians: We will accept an authority figure on our jobs, in our community (mayor, police officers, etc.), in our state (governor), in our country (president and congressmen), and our immediate family (father and mother), but somehow we just can't imagine an authority figure in the church, other than Jesus Himself. Jesus said, "... he who receives whomever I send receives Me ..." John 13:20 Jesus sent apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers, Ephesians 4:11 They are to equip us for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ. Verse 12. In 1 Thessalonians 5:12, Paul tells us to "appreciate those who diligently labor among you, and have charge over you in the Lord and give you instruction, and that you esteem them very highly in love because of their work."
What if your "pastor" is arrogant, unfriendly, cliqueish, doesn't know the scriptures well, doesn't know how to teach, or is too busy reaching the lost to take care of the church? Well, maybe God didn't even call him to be a pastor, but he is trying to fill that role anyway. The sheep must move on to find a shepherd who is concerned for his flock.
I agree with you that the traditional church has many problems. Many pastors have large congregations and there is no way they can shepherd all of the sheep. Jesus Himself "pastored" only 12! Sure, they will often have smaller Bible studies, sports groups, drama groups, cell groups, singles groups, etc., etc., etc. Although all of these small groups may be somewhat helpful as far as fellowship is concerned, they often have a serious flaw: They are not led by a person called by God to shepherd His flock. "Seeing the people, He (Jesus) felt compassion for them, because they were distressed and dispirited like sheep without a shepherd." Matthew 9:36 We ALL desparately NEED a shepherd to teach, mentor, challenge, warn, and comfort us through this life until we go home to be with Jesus. Yes, Jesus is our Chief Shepherd, 1 Peter 5:4, but He gave us other shepherds, so we can grow.
You might ask, how can this actually happen in today's world and with traditional churches? I only know of one way - home churches. We see this model several times in the New Testament - Romans 16:5; 1 Corinthians 16:19; Acts 8:3 is a possible reference to home churches, so is Acts 12:12. We don't see Jesus ever commanding His disciples to build a church building. Paul started many churches but never once do we read that he built an actual church building. If a church building was ever a priority, the Bible would have instructed us to build many! Am I saying that the traditional church with it's physical building cannot do any good for God's kingdom? NO, but often the building is a financial and managerial (if that's a word) drain and distraction. I've said enough, God bless you all!
1 Timothy 3:1-7 tells us that if any man aspires to the office of an overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. Verses 4 and 5 tell us that he must be one who manages his own household well or he won't be able to take care of the church of God. Just as a father manages his family, so is an overseer or pastor supposed to manage the church of God. Jesus is the Head but the overseer is the shepherd of the flock under Him, which is clearly seen in Acts 20:28. One of the primary functions of the overseer is to teach. 1 Timothy 3:2 says that he must be able to teach. If God has called him to be an overseer and a primary function of an overseer is to teach, then it behooves us to listen to his teaching.
Does this mean that we accept everything that he says, no questions asked? Of course not, we test everything against the standard of the Bible. Here is a sad thing with many Christians: We will accept an authority figure on our jobs, in our community (mayor, police officers, etc.), in our state (governor), in our country (president and congressmen), and our immediate family (father and mother), but somehow we just can't imagine an authority figure in the church, other than Jesus Himself. Jesus said, "... he who receives whomever I send receives Me ..." John 13:20 Jesus sent apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers, Ephesians 4:11 They are to equip us for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ. Verse 12. In 1 Thessalonians 5:12, Paul tells us to "appreciate those who diligently labor among you, and have charge over you in the Lord and give you instruction, and that you esteem them very highly in love because of their work."
What if your "pastor" is arrogant, unfriendly, cliqueish, doesn't know the scriptures well, doesn't know how to teach, or is too busy reaching the lost to take care of the church? Well, maybe God didn't even call him to be a pastor, but he is trying to fill that role anyway. The sheep must move on to find a shepherd who is concerned for his flock.
I agree with you that the traditional church has many problems. Many pastors have large congregations and there is no way they can shepherd all of the sheep. Jesus Himself "pastored" only 12! Sure, they will often have smaller Bible studies, sports groups, drama groups, cell groups, singles groups, etc., etc., etc. Although all of these small groups may be somewhat helpful as far as fellowship is concerned, they often have a serious flaw: They are not led by a person called by God to shepherd His flock. "Seeing the people, He (Jesus) felt compassion for them, because they were distressed and dispirited like sheep without a shepherd." Matthew 9:36 We ALL desparately NEED a shepherd to teach, mentor, challenge, warn, and comfort us through this life until we go home to be with Jesus. Yes, Jesus is our Chief Shepherd, 1 Peter 5:4, but He gave us other shepherds, so we can grow.
You might ask, how can this actually happen in today's world and with traditional churches? I only know of one way - home churches. We see this model several times in the New Testament - Romans 16:5; 1 Corinthians 16:19; Acts 8:3 is a possible reference to home churches, so is Acts 12:12. We don't see Jesus ever commanding His disciples to build a church building. Paul started many churches but never once do we read that he built an actual church building. If a church building was ever a priority, the Bible would have instructed us to build many! Am I saying that the traditional church with it's physical building cannot do any good for God's kingdom? NO, but often the building is a financial and managerial (if that's a word) drain and distraction. I've said enough, God bless you all!
- jriccitelli
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- Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:14 am
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Re: Looking for non-institutional fellowship in Vancouver WA
Welcome Dwight, I think we are in agreement. I don’t think we have to relegate ourselves to home churches though. We have church buildings so we can have church, the problem is that tradition and the institutionalized rituals of men have completely sucked the life out of what was originally disciples and believers meeting together for worship, communion, prayer, study, and fellowship with one another. Nearly all Christian institutions have taken their format from Roman Catholicism, its hierarchical structure, liturgical formats, priesthood, and the separation of the laity and clergy. Men have assumed roles of leadership that God did not ordain. Just calling someone ‘The’ Pastor reveals this problem, and from this problem all the rest follows. But I should divert this to another thread ‘the Church service’ is one such thread here:
http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=3960
I came out of the box abit strong on the original posters question, so I should have explained at that time. I found there are a ‘few’ churches that do 'not' operate in the structured institutionalized sense (very few). I hope Mike finds one in Vancouver. If not a good home church would be better, but I have found that some home churches are just smaller versions of the institutionalized church. E.g. Men trying to promote themselves, become ‘The Pastor’ and Lord over others.
http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=3960
I came out of the box abit strong on the original posters question, so I should have explained at that time. I found there are a ‘few’ churches that do 'not' operate in the structured institutionalized sense (very few). I hope Mike finds one in Vancouver. If not a good home church would be better, but I have found that some home churches are just smaller versions of the institutionalized church. E.g. Men trying to promote themselves, become ‘The Pastor’ and Lord over others.
- dwight92070
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- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am
Re: Looking for non-institutional fellowship in Vancouver WA
Thanks jriccitelli for your response. This is Dwight again. I believe that Ephesians 4 is the only place where the word "pastor" is used in scripture. But I think that a quick comparison with other scriptures, some of which I already mentioned before, makes it clear that a pastor, a shepherd, an overseer, or an elder, are all the same thing - Acts 20:1,28; 1 Timothy 3:1-7; Titus 1:1-9 You seem to be averse to calling one man a pastor. But any of the 4 titles are Biblical. How about the issue of ONE MAN? Well, again 1 Timothy 3:4-5 makes it clear that just as one man (the father) should manage his own family, so one man should manage the church of God. When the mother tries to usurp the father's role, there is strife. When 2 or more persons try to lead a local church, there is strife or, at the very least, differing visions, even with Jesus as their Head. Obviously, Jesus Himself did not ask for a co-leader over the 12 apostles. But how many of the 12 did He ask to "shepherd His sheep" when He was about to return to His Father? Only 1, Peter. He appointed Peter to lead the 12.
Your words bring to mind another issue - fellowship. My son, Jared, and I were discussing this today. We have seen 2 extremes, where Christians will converse about everything BUT God and the Bible (they seem to be ashamed of it) to Christians who won't talk about anything else (as if it was a sin to do so). Here is a sad thing: One can be a Christian and not have friends. One can be loved but not liked. I don't have an answer for this one. What are your thoughts? Or maybe others have thoughts on this.
Your words bring to mind another issue - fellowship. My son, Jared, and I were discussing this today. We have seen 2 extremes, where Christians will converse about everything BUT God and the Bible (they seem to be ashamed of it) to Christians who won't talk about anything else (as if it was a sin to do so). Here is a sad thing: One can be a Christian and not have friends. One can be loved but not liked. I don't have an answer for this one. What are your thoughts? Or maybe others have thoughts on this.