Pharaoh Magicians duplicating rod to snake miracles.

[Bookends]

Thank you Robby, what you said seems convincing and I appreciate your answer, it seems sound.

However, my problem with it is as I stated in my OP. If they did use trickery, how did they know what trick to prepare for and perform? Did they carry snakes around with them everywhere they went to show off their bag of tricks?

Also if this is such a good trick, why aren't magicians duplicating it to this day?

It is possible I suppose that a demon could have been watching on at the scene of the burning bush where God first performed the miracle in front of Moses. This demon then could have gave a vision to the magicians telling them what Moses was about to do. But this doesn't explain how the magicians duplicated the other miracles of turning water into blood and with the frogs. But in all the cases here, after the magicians duplicated the miracles, Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and we know God hardened it.

I just seems more credible to me that supernatural power was involved (either from God or Satan).

Thanks for your comment Brother.

[Bookends]

Greetings,

It appears to me that whenever the Biblical narative says anything, all we can do is make assumptions. Whether the power was from God, Satan or just slight of hand, it is an assumption. However, it seems a bigger assumption to think that God gave Jannes and Jambres the power to perform the trick. If God indeed gave them the power, why hold them in contempt as Paul does in writing to Timothy? (cf. 2 Timothy 3:8) It's a bit too Augustinian for my tastes.

Regards, Brenden.

I'm not suggesting that God gave them power. I'm suggesting that the miracles they duplicated could have been directed or performed by God to further harden Pharaoh's heart. Why hold them in contempt? Because they went against God, and perhaps the Hebrews knew more about the activities of these men after the Exodus as the "Talmud" states. Paul certainly didn't get their names from the Exodus account. Thanks for your answer Brother, I learned a new term, "Augustinian".

[robbyyoung]

Thank you Robby, what you said seems convincing and I appreciate your answer, it seems sound.

However, my problem with it is as I stated in my OP. If they did use trickery, how did they know what trick to prepare for and perform? Did they carry snakes around with them everywhere they went to show off their bag of tricks?

Also if this is such a good trick, why aren't magicians duplicating it to this day?

Hey Bro,

I'm sorry I didn't address this in my response, but the text does indicate a period of elapsed time from Moses/Aaron to Pharaoh calling for his magicians. How much time is unknown, but Pharaoh's servants who've seen what Moses/Aaron did, would've told the magicians what transpired before they entered Pharaoh's presence. Preparations during this time would've been made, whether they had demonic help or not is also unknown, but what is known is the flashing/flame masking, which indicates an attempt to deceive.

Magicians do the same today and even greater tricks. But every last one of them need prep-time, just as the magicians of old. Here's a guy turning water into Coca-Cola, of course it isn't real Coca-Cola, but it's impressive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XS1R7EXmZlw

If I look hard enough I could probably find the snake trick as well. In any case, this was fun discussing and speculating on "the how" but we both agree the account did, in-fact, happen .

God Bless!

[Bookends]

Thank you Robby, what you said seems convincing and I appreciate your answer, it seems sound.

However, my problem with it is as I stated in my OP. If they did use trickery, how did they know what trick to prepare for and perform? Did they carry snakes around with them everywhere they went to show off their bag of tricks?

Also if this is such a good trick, why aren't magicians duplicating it to this day?

Hey Bro,

I'm sorry I didn't address this in my response, but the text does indicate a period of elapsed time from Moses/Aaron to Pharaoh calling for his magicians. How much time is unknown, but Pharaoh's servants who've seen what Moses/Aaron did, would've told the magicians what transpired before they entered Pharaoh's presence. Preparations during this time would've been made, whether they had demonic help or not is also unknown, but what is known is the flashing/flame masking, which indicates an attempt to deceive.

Ok, so Moses and Aaron, the snake, Pharaoh and his company just sat around for awhile waiting for the magicians to gather up what they needed. Possible yes, but to call out could also mean to order them or call upon them for help, a response or rebuttal. There is no indication that much time elapsed after Aaron threw down his rod. Granted nor does it say that much time hadn't elapsed, it just seems unlikely to me. Just by reading the narrative I don't think one would get the impression many minutes elapsed after Aaron's rod was thrown down to when the magicians threw their rods down, it seems seconds after.

And we agree it did happen, and issue in discussion here is of little consequence to faith in general, IMHO.

God bless.

[TheEditor]

Greetings,

Magicians are familiar with all popular tricks performed, and it could very well be that this snakes/staff thing was not an uncommon trick. Either way, the account doesn't say how much time elapsed after the blood/frogs "plague" and the replication by the Magicians, so there is that.

My issue is less with how it was done, but rather the idea that "the miracles they duplicated could have been directed or performed by God to further harden Pharaoh's heart". But to the God "causing" Pharoahs's heart to become obstinate, many translations read that God advised Moses that he would "harden [Pharoah's] heart." (Ex. 4:21; compare Ex. 9:12; 10:1,27.) Some translations however render the Hebrew account to read that God "let [Pharoah's] heart wax bold" (Rotherham); Rotherham supports his rendering of "let" by showing that in Hebrew the occasion or permission of an event is often presented as if it were the cause of the event, and that "even positive commands are occasionally to be accepted as meaning no more than permission." Rotherham uses Exodus 1:17 as an example and shows that the original Hebrew text literally says that the midwives "caused the male children to live," whereas in reality they permitted them to live by refraining from putting them to death. After quoting Hebrew scholars M.M. Kalisch, H.F.W. Gesenius, and B. Davies in support, Rotherham states that the Hebrew sense of the texts involving Pharoah is that "God permitted Pharoah to harden his own heart--spared him--gave him the opportunity, the occasion, of working out the wickedness that was in him. That is all."---The Emphasised Bible, appendix, p. 919; compare Isa. 10:5-7.

Corroborating this understanding of the matter is the fact that the record definitely shows that Pharoah himself "hardened his heart." (Ex. 8:15,32, King James) In fact, not less then 10 times is Pharoah recorded in the account as hardening his own heart. He thus exercised his own will and followed his own stubborn inclination, the results of which inclination Jehovah accurately foresaw and predicted. The repeated opportunities given him by God obliged Pharoah to make decisions, and in doing so he became hardened in his attitude. (Compare Eccl. 8:11,12) As the apostle Paul shows by quoting Exodus 9:16, Jehovah allowed the matter to develop in this way to the full length of ten plagues in order to make manifest his own power and cause his name to be made known earth wide.--Rom. 9:17.

Regards, Brenden,