I wrote:But the matter of not killing people is a moral imperative. That's why God commanded it. That's why Jesus said to do good to your enemies rather than seeking revenge (which revenge might involve killing them).
Steve, you wrote:In fact, both the Old Testament and the New Testament disagree with you last statement. God said we should not avenge ourselves—not because it is immoral to do so, but simply because it is God's prerogative, and not ours, to avenge wrongs: "Vengeance is Mine; I will repay" (Deut.32:35). Moses said it first, and Paul repeated it favorably (Rom.12:19).
I don't think the writers of the New Testament indicated God to be vengeful. In my opinion, "Vengeance is mine" is a mistranslation of the Greek word "ἐκδικησις" (ekdikāsis). (This is the same word as that used in the Septuagint translation of Deut 32:35, by the way)
Please consider the following passage which Paul wrote to the Corinthians in his second letter after the Corinthians took Paul's advice and ostracised the man who had been copulating with his father's wife. This treatment by the Corinthian Christians resulted in the man's repentance and Paul then advised them to forgive him. But the actions of the Corinthians also did good to the whole church as Paul indicated below:
Paul wrote:For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it. For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while. Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death. For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication! In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter. (2 Cor 7:8-11 NKJV)
Guess what word, the NKJV correctly translated as "vindication"? None other than "
ἐκδικησις" Or do you suppose it might better be translated as "vengeance"? "What
vengeance you Corinthians wreaked upon that filthy sinner! I'm proud of you!" No. That wasn't the heart of Paul, and it wasn't the heart of the Corinthians. They didn't take vengeance on the man at all. They disciplined him through ostracisation (and probably excommunication), but they did it out of love so that the man might be healed of his sinful inclinations. And so it was. The man repented and was delivered from his sin. The man was vindicated (the obsolete meaning of which is "to liberate, set free deliver"). But he was set free at a great cost to himself. He had to undergo severe discipline.
I suggest the word "ἐκδικησις" ought to be translated as "justice". Indeed, the NKJV does translate the verbal form of the word as "give justice" in Luke 18:3.
And there was a widow in that city who kept coming to him and saying, ‘Give me justice against my adversary.’
In Christ's parable, the widow did not want vengeance against her adversary; she wanted justice for herself. If the NKJV were consistent it would have translated the word as "give justice" also in verse 7. Here is the way the ESV translates the verse:
And shall God not give justice to His own elect who cry out day and night to Him? Will He delay long over them?
This is not about vengeance at all. It is about justice (that is—fairness).
Justice is mine says the Lord; I will repay.
The Lord will make sure that everone is given the treatment they need. If reward is needed, God will repay them with reward; if correction is needed, God will repay them with correction (and in some cases only severe correction will do the job. But even that severe correction is mercy, and God will administer only as much of it as is needed. He does NOTHING out of mere vengeance as human beings so often do.
You wrote:Your position, therefore, professes to know more about the character of God than did not only Moses (whom you think to have been mistaken about all such matters), but also than did Paul.
I have rejected such a statement in the past, and I still reject it. I can say only that you are mistaken in your judgment of my position.
You wrote:See other places where Paul (and the writer of Hebrews) believed that God "strikes" and "judges" sinners (Acts 23:3; Rom.2:5-9; Heb.10:28-31; 13:4).
Okay. Let's examine them one by one:
Then Paul said to him, “God is going to strike you, you whitewashed wall! Are you sitting to judge me according to the law, and yet contrary to the law you order me to be struck?” (Acts 23:3)
The high priest struck Paul in the mouth. This was his immediate response. He was angry. He called the high priest "you whitewashed wall". Yes, he told the priest that God was going to strike him, though that may not have been his actual belief. But even if it were his actual belief, God striking a person is not tantamount to killing him or wreaking vengeance upon him. When God strikes someone it is only for the purpose of remediation.
Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek. (Rom 2:3-9 ESV)
I do not see this passage as indicating vengeance. Yes, God is angry about sin. His wrath will result in tough love. But the whole passage is about rewarding the righteous and disciplining the unrighteous. The Jews are not exempt because the are of the Jewish religion. They will be treated the same as the Gentiles. It's not about vengeance.
Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, "Justice is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The LORD will judge His people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Heb 10:28-31)
I took the liberty of using the word "justice" in this passage rather than "vengeance" as I believe it to have been mistranslated. The strongest aspect in favour of the revenge argument is that the Greek word "timoria" was used by the author which seems to refer to punishing someone out of vengeance. This is the only place in the NT in which this word is used in it's nominal form. But the verbal form of the word is used of Paul, prior to his conversion, with respect to his punishment of Christians. However, another word which looks similar (epitimia) and is translated as "punishment"was used of the discipline which the Corinthian church employed with the man who had copulated with his father's wife.
Notice that the author of Hebrews also quotes "The LORD will judge
His people." Surely God's judgment of His own people will be that of correction and not vengeance. And as I see it, that will also be the case with everyone else. God will not let anyone get away with wrongdoing. For He loves everyone with a lasting love; He wants everyone to be free from wrongdoing, and to work only righteousness. Again He will give them the correction they need, and in many cases this will be a severe and fearful correction. It is best to repent and become free from wrongdoing now.
Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge. (Heb 13:4)
Of course God will judge such. Have I ever denied God's judgments? God judging people and correcting them is much different from God wreaking vengeance on people as fallen human beings are prone to do.