Who is That Great Cloud of Witnesses?

[Paidion]

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. (Heb12:1,2 ESV)

I have heard a good many preachers say that this "great cloud of witnesses" are the saints which "have gone on before", and who are now in heaven watching us and "cheering us on." Is that the understanding which you have most often heard expressed? Or perhaps I should ask, "Is this your understanding?"

I have a totally different understanding of the passage. But first I would like to read what you all think. Please state how you understand the passage and why.

[backwoodsman]

If that's Romans 12, the ESV is a worse translation than I thought.

It's always seemed pretty straightforward to me that he's referring to the heroes of faith he just talked about in chapter 11 (of Hebrews )

[Paidion]

If that's Romans 12, the ESV is a worse translation than I thought.

I had a senior moment there! I corrrected it, and so I hope that restores your trust in the excellent ESV translation!

[Michelle]

I also think the Great Cloud of Witnesses are those mentioned in chapter eleven of Hebrews. Your explanation of what you have heard from a good many preachers goes on to describe what they are presently doing. Would you like us to describe what we think they are doing as well?

[Paidion]

I'm not sure what you are asking, Michelle. But if that cloud of witnesses is a crowd of saints in heaven watching all of our actions (which are sometimes hurtful to others as well as ourselves), they must not be overly happy in their heavenly state, having to witness such hurtful actions!

[Michelle]

Well, I do think the cloud is made up of the saints, but I don't think they are in heaven watching every believer on earth. How could that work?

[mikew]

If the clouds are the witnesses, what happens on a cloudless day?

Actually, the overall flow is that the Hebrews should endure in faith in the fashion that those people in Heb 11 had endured it. The textual emphasis seems to be on the historic set of individuals (mostly as listed in the OT) who endured through life in light of the faithfulness of God. While we might wishfully desire that these people (saints, especially of the OT) could be cheering us on, there is nothing in the text to make that clear. The writer of Hebrews basically was saying their current struggle was not unusual among all general struggles of those who have lived by faith.

I guess the question is the significance (or general usage, if possibly available ) of 'surrounded by a cloud of witnesses' is. It seems on first glance, at least, that the description of these people in Heb 11 as a cloud indicates the influence of those in Heb 11 on the audience of the Hebrews letter -- while at the same time, it is not their physical/solid presence, but only their influence.

So the Hebrew audience was in the mist (midst) of the historic faith of many of their predecessors. But it was like being in a cloud where there is something there but at the same time, the surrounding is felt ... more than something being something so can physically grab on to. (I hope I have not made this too confusing ).

[Paidion]

Well, it does seem a little muddy, Mike. But I think you have the idea. Thanks to all who have responded.

Perhaps we agree that the "cloud of witnesses" refers to those heroes of the faith whose deeds of valour are described in chapter 11 (as Mike has expressed above).

In my opinion, the writer refers to ONLY those people. They bear witness to what can be accomplished through faith. Therefore, says the writer, we, through faith, need to continue to run the race, trusting in Jesus the founder and perfecter of our faith, in order to continue our struggle against sin so that we might be overcomers, coming not to a mountain such as Moses ascended, but to Mount Zion, and become part of the completed Church, the perfected sons of God for whose manifestation, the whole creation is groaning.

Back to the cloud of witnesses. Suppose we were concerned about the health of a person who is a heavy smoker. We might say to him, "Thousands of smokers have died from lung cancer or emphysema. There is a great crowd of witnesses to this fact." This doesn't imply that those smokers who have died from these diseases are in heaven" looking down" on smokers and encouraging them to stop, or in hell "looking up" at smokers and warning them that smoking will kill them. It's simply that the way they died is a witness to the serious consequence of smoking. Similarly those men and women of faith whose exploits are described in Hebrews 11, witness to what can be accomplished through faith.

[MMathis]

In Hebrews 11 there is a list of people and a brief description of events that are associated with that person.
So, doesn't 12 just refer to all those that have gone before and have knowledge of God's power?

[mikew]

In Hebrews 11 there is a list of people and a brief description of events that are associated with that person.
So, doesn't 12 just refer to all those that have gone before and have knowledge of God's power?

Sure.
Mostly the question addressed here was whether these people of faith were being described for their historic actions or whether they were sort of heavenly eyewitnesses of the Hebrew believers in the first century.