Eternal Security

Discuss topics raised by callers on the radio program
User avatar
steve
Posts: 3392
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Eternal Security

Post by steve » Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:59 pm

Are you saying that God does not love me with unconditional love?
No.
You dont think that God would save from my wandering?
If you allow Him to, yes.
Isn't he a shepherd? That's his Job- to keep us safe. Otherwise he would not be a good shepeherd.
He is a shepherd, to be sure. And we are sheep—but not mere sheep. We are also human beings possessing free will and bearing our share of responsibility for maintaining the relationship.

We are kept "by the power of God through faith" (1 Pet.1:5). His part is to provide the power of God. Ours is to have faith. We must keep ourselves in the faith. We must keep ourselves from idols (1 John 5:21).

He is "able to keep you from stumbling" (Jude 24), but we must also keep ourselves in the love of God (v. 21).

john316yes
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:38 pm

Re: Eternal Security

Post by john316yes » Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:00 pm

STEVE "We are also humans possessing free will"
Nevertheless, we are still God's sheep. Sheep wander and he finds them. A Christian can wander, but God finds them. When God Justifies, it is permanent. If one sins, it does not undo God's decision to Justify sinners.

""I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." ( John 10 ) He laid down his life to save us forever, without any conditions. It is free. As long the sinner repents and believes in God's Redeemer, Jesus Christ the righteous. When he does, he is sealed forever with the promise Holy Spirit.

"The Lord is my shepherd ... He guides me along the right paths for his name's sake. He makes me lie down in green pastures, he leads me beside quiet waters,he refreshes my soul. your rod and your staff, they comfort me." (Psalm23)

Jesus will not let you go despite our ignorance, stupidity, unfaithfulness, and sin. He is the good shepherd, he will never let us go, he is looking out for us. The Holy Spirit will keep us safe from falling into error.


Jesus prayer for you and me; another guarantee that we will never be lost. ETERNAL SECURITY. Here are some verses that gives me the impression that I'm saved forever.


"But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."-John 17
"I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours."- Luke 22
STEVE "We must keep ourselves in the faith."

Singalphile
Posts: 903
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:46 pm

Re: Eternal Security

Post by Singalphile » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:27 pm

john316yes wrote:
... why in tar nation would their be a possibility .... [emphasis added]
Steve wrote about john316yes:
My impression is that you are fairly young.
I wouldn't be so sure. Fairly young people don't say "tar nation". ;)

I think that words like "lose", "fall away", and "back-slide" give the impression that one can cease to be in Christ just by accident or a moment or two of carelessness or by getting dragged off by some force (gravity) despite struggling to hold on tight. That is a frightening thought to some people, understandably so.
Last edited by Singalphile on Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

dwilkins
Posts: 647
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:54 pm

Re: Eternal Security

Post by dwilkins » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:28 pm

John316,

I'm curious about how you would answer two questions.


First, in the text,

John 3:16 (ESV)
16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

"believes" is a present active verb, meaning that it's an ongoing function. It seems to me that your position would have it as a perfect tense, so that "whoever has ever believed" would be an adequate translation. If a past decision is final, why do you have to maintain faith in order to fulfill the dynamic of the passage?


Second, in the text,

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 (ESV)
1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you— unless you believed in vain.

we have Paul preparing to detail his definition of the gospel. The audience had clearly been saved at some point. How is it that they could have believed in vain if it is impossible to lose your salvation?

Doug

paulespino
Posts: 267
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:02 am

Re: Eternal Security

Post by paulespino » Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:13 am

Hi John316yes,
You wrote:
Nevertheless, we are still God's sheep. Sheep wander and he finds them. A Christian can wander, but God finds them.
You are trying to compare ( Shepherd and God ) and ( people and sheep ). In comparing them we must remember that there are similarities and dissimilarities.
I have listed some of the similarities and dissimilarities. The red font describes the action of the shepherd and the blue font describes the action of God.
Similarities between Shepherd and God:
Shepherd - God
-he love his sheep - God love us ( people )
- he will search for his missing sheep and bring it back - God will search for His people and bring His people back to Him
-he will never leave nor forsake his sheep - God will never leave us nor forsake us but it did not say that we can not leave and if we leave him he will search for us and when he finds us he will convince us to come back but will not force us to come back
-he has the authority over his sheep - God has the authority over us
Dissimilarities
Shepherd - God
- shepherd's power is limited - God's power is unlimited (Matthew 19:26 But Jesus... said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”)
-The shepherd will force his sheep to come back to him - God will not force us to come back to him.
- he will tie the sheep if needed in order to bring it home - God will not tie our hands , we have the free will to choose him
-If the sheep keeps on running away he will probably put the sheep in the cage - God will not put us in the cage.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Roman 8:1
You wrote:
When God Justifies, it is permanent. If one sins, it does not undo God's decision to Justify sinners.
Romans 8:1 tells us that God's justification is conditional that is those who are IN CHRIST there are no condemnation But you must be IN Christ in order to be justified. To be IN CHRIST you must have faith in him.

john316yes
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:38 pm

Re: Eternal Security

Post by john316yes » Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:39 pm

Yes, I believe that Jesus will come looking for me when I wander away from him and he will lovingly bring me back. He always does.

]"The Lord is my Shepherd I shall not want ... he makes me lie down in green pastures he leads me beside the still waters even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear no evil your rod and staff comfort me"

Yes, I choose to do this ,but it is the Power of God working in me that convinces me to come back. What everybody's hang up ? It is the fact that you cant get pass free will. People choose according to their will -that is true. Somebody who has not been reconciled to God is an enemy of God and will not choose to follow God he will never will as Paul says,

"Even if our gospel is veiled it is veiled to those who are being destroyed for the god of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers to keep them form seeing the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ who is the image of God."[/b

But Person who is in Christ is lead by the Spirit and will always come back.

"I shall give them eternal life and they shall never perish" - Jesus

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3392
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Eternal Security

Post by steve » Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:26 am

Wonderful thoughts! Keep the faith, Bro.

john316yes
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:38 pm

Re: Eternal Security

Post by john316yes » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:15 pm

You too brutha! I know you will! Cuz u have been born again and "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will"
Ephesians 1:11

Jesus Loves you man, Keep a close eye on your doctrine and do!


Your brutha, John316 :D

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Eternal Security

Post by Paidion » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:54 am

John316 wrote:Jesus Loves you man, Keep a close eye on your doctrine and do!
He's been predestined to do so.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

paulespino
Posts: 267
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:02 am

Re: Eternal Security

Post by paulespino » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:41 pm

Hi John316 yes,
NIV Romans 1:21-32
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

This verse tells us that those people (Jews) knew God but they still decided to reject God and because they rejected God they were given by God to the lust of their flesh. God did not force them to come back to Him because these people does not want to come back to him.
Romans 2:4-5
Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance?
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

God's LOVE ( Tolerance, kindness and patience ) should lead them to repentance but because of their stubborn heart they chose not to repent.
God's love should lead a person to repentance but only if the person does not have a stubborn heart.

You wrote
Yes, I believe that Jesus will come looking for me when I wander away from him and he will lovingly bring me back. He always does. (I agree)
"The Lord is my Shepherd I shall not want ... he makes me lie down in green pastures he leads me beside the still waters even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear no evil your rod and staff comfort me( I agree )
Yes, I choose to do this ,but it is the Power of God working in me that convinces me to come back. ( I agree )
[/color]
What everybody's hang up ? It is the fact that you cant get pass free will.
( Even Adam and Eve exercised their Free will
Free will is one of the Major reason we are here in this world. What I mean is that if Adam and Eve did not have Free will we will still be in the Garden of Eden.
[ King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.]
Somebody who has not been reconciled to God is an enemy of God and will not choose to follow God he will never will as Paul says,
Romans 5:10 King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

( Actually according to Paul everyone has been reconciled to God through Christ
God has opened the door of his kingdom to everyone who chooses to accept the gift of Christ which is Salvation and therefore everyone can now come to God through faith in Christ If they want.
Even if our gospel is veiled it is veiled to those who are being destroyed for the god of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers to keep them form seeing the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ who is the image of God."
2 Corinthian 4:3-4 The New King James Version.
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them

According to Paul that people are perishing because the god of this world ( Satan ) blinded their minds and because of this they could not see the Gospel ( Truth). The Gospel (Truth) is veiled to them ( those who are perishing ) because their minds are blind. According to this verse God is not the reason as to why the Gospel is veiled to them but Satan. Also take note that the word is PERISHING which is a present participle which means that there is a continuation from present and possibly to the future but this does not mean that the "Perishing" has no end. There can be an end to the "Perishing" once the person who is perishing is introduced to the LIGHT (GOSPEL) and when this happen their mind will be enlightened and the veil to the gospel will be removed. If they have been introduced to the Gospel but refused to accept it then their mind will also be blinded by Satan but again because the Holy Spirit is continuously convicting us of our sins because God wants us to come back to him then the blinded minds can once again see the light that is if they chose to come back to God.
But Person who is in Christ is lead by the Spirit and will always come back. (As you said that the person who is IN Christ will always come back, I agree but the person who is NOT IN Christ will Not always come back. He May still come back IF he chooses .)

Post Reply

Return to “Radio Program Topics”