Did God Really Do This?

[steve7150]

Steve 7150 wrote:You know Paidion God has a lot of other attributes that we may have to a limited extent like love,mercy,faithfulness etc so it wouldn't be odd that we have free will to a limited extent. We do make choices but our will is influenced by the devil, by our sinful nature, by a lack of understanding and by many other things, so it is not a so called "free will."



I fully agree, Steve, that our choices "are influenced by Satanic powers, our sinful nature and many other things." The "many other things" would include the influence of other people. However, this doesn't "limit" our free will. Rather, as you said, it "influences" our free will. There's quite a difference between the two. A man might influence his 10 y old son's free will by stating that if he does that again (where "that" is some action of which the father disapproves or has forbidden), he will be grounded for a week. However, this influence, (or rather threat), does not limit the free will of the son. The son may still choose do to that in spite of the consequences.





Thanks for your response Paidion although we define "free" differently. On Dictionary.com one of the definitions of "free" is unrestricted choice and also influence may lead to coercion which restricts freedom of choice. Additionally the devil deceives or as Paul puts it "blinds" the minds of unbelievers and Satan deceives folks. You can't be deceived,blinded,influenced and restricted and have freedom of choice IMHO.

I would be interested for you to respond to my question about whether you think it's possible that God will make every injustice in this age "right" in the age to come even if we can't comprehend it. Accepting this concept helps anyone accept the parts of the bible that seem to contradict a "loving" God.

[Paidion]

I would be interested for you to respond to my question about whether you think it's possible that God will make every injustice in this age "right" in the age to come even if we can't comprehend it. Accepting this concept helps anyone accept the parts of the bible that seem to contradict a "loving" God.

Yes, I certainly do believe that it is not only possible, but that God will, in fact, correct every injustice. Those who have tortured and killed others or have hurt them in less drastic ways, and who have not repented (had a change of heart and mind) will have to face what they have done, will understand the immensity of their deeds, will be deeply remorseful, and will confess their deeds and repent of them. They will take on a different mind set and become new persons. The evil within them will be totally destroyed.
However, I fail to see the relevance of this to accepting as true those parts of the Bible which depict God as having Himself done such deeds.

Some say that God does (or "allows") these things in order to bring about a higher purpose. But no seems to be able to say what that higher purpose is — and God doesn't reveal it. This was Melanie's problem — the woman whom Greg Boyd helped. Greg wrote about a Bible teacher who had told her that God had taken away her baby at birth because He was trying to teach her something. But the fact that God didn't reveal to Melanie what He was trying to teach her was very frustrating and led to her deep depression, and loss of zeal for Christ. Some people claim that God does these things in order to correct people or to teach them to behave better. But good people who are not behaving wrongly suffer these atrocities at the hands of evil men, and many who have done wrong breeze through life with virtually no problems. This is exactly what Job observed about life. So that is why I do not believe God is responsible for these atrocities, though clearly He is able to bring good out of these hurtful situations, and frequently does so.

[steve7150]

Some say that God does (or "allows") these things in order to bring about a higher purpose. But no seems to be able to say what that higher purpose is — and God doesn't reveal it. This was Melanie's problem — the woman whom Greg Boyd helped. Greg wrote about a Bible teacher who had told her that God had taken away her baby at birth because He was trying to teach her something. But the fact that God didn't reveal to Melanie what He was trying to teach her was very frustrating and led to her deep depression, and loss of zeal for Christ. Some people claim that God does these things in order to correct people or to teach them to behave better. But good people who are not behaving wrongly suffer these atrocities at the hands of evil men, and many who have done wrong breeze through life with virtually no problems. This is exactly what Job observed about life. So that is why I do no t believe God is responsible for these atrocities, though clearly He is able to bring good out of these hurtful situations, and frequently does so.



It's interesting that in the NT Satan suddenly appears as a powerful entity after having almost no visible role in the OT which may be because little was know about him by the OT writers. Perhaps Satan committed the apparent atrocities attributed to God because the victims lost the right to retain a hedge of protection. Of course God is sovereign over Satan but for certain reasons that we are not aware of, God rarely intervenes. In other words, perhaps the OT writers just attribute every significant event to God even if Satan actually commited these atrocities. Although God is over Satan , there may be a difference if this was the case.

[Paidion]

In other words, perhaps the OT writers just attribute every significant event to God even if Satan actually commited these atrocities.

All right, Steve7150! This sounds like something I, myself, might have written. It was certainly true in the case of Job. He thought God had brought all that suffering on him — his sickness, the loss of his children, etc. But we know it was Satan who directly did it, and God did nothing to prevent it. In fact He gave Satan the go-ahead. In that case, it does seem that God allowed it for a purpose — in order to test Job. Also, Job attributed his righteousness to his own efforts, and was proud of it. He didn't give God the glory for enabling him to be righteous. There were several references in the story to "the king of pride." His three "friends" had to repent and sacrifice for their error in blaming Job for his suffering by stating that he must have been doing evil things. Job himself also had something of which to repent, namely his pride in his righteousness instead of attributing that rightousness to God. But young Elihu had nothing of which to repent. Indeed, his counsel to Job closely paralled that of God Himself. The book of Job is considered to have been written earlier than any other Old Testament book.

[steve7150]

All right, Steve! This sounds like something I, myself, might have written. It was certainly true in the case of Job. He thought God had brought all that suffering on him — his sickness, the loss of his children, etc. But we know it was Satan who directly did it, and God did nothing to prevent it.










Peter tells us Satan seeks to devour people so this most likely goes back to the Garden of Eden. Devouring people certainly is consistent with atrocities yet God allows it. Why doesn't God intervene and just destroy the devil? For myself i go back to the verse "knowing good and evil they have become like God." I think good and evil being in the same tree have to be experienced together for man to really appreciate love and other godly attributes.

[steve7150]

You know Paidion although i disagree with you concerning your method of not accepting scripture that seems to not agree with God's character , i must commend you bringing up this issue.

The character of God may be the most important doctrine in the bible. Without it there is no sacrifice by Jesus, no redemption, no love, no mercy , no forgiveness, no relationship,no existence and nothing worthwhile.

[Paidion]

I think good and evil being in the same tree ...

This seems odd to me. It's not that good and evil were in the same tree. Rather this was the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. It was the tree that enabled man to distinguish between good and evil. Now this in itself is a good thing, and is indicative of maturity as mentioned in Hebrews 5:14

But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

However, Adam and Eve were immature. Though they were created as adults, they were inexperienced like children. The way I see it is that God wanted them to mature, and then to eat from the tree of life. Then after they had matured, He wanted them to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

But it seems that even though the tree of life was placed right in the Garden along with the tree of knowledge of good and evil, Adam and Eve weren't aware it. God would probably have asked them to eat from it after they had matured. But the serpent tempted them to do things in reverse and to eat from the tree of knowledge which God had forbidden until they had matured and eaten from the tree of life. This is the way of the devil. Often his tempations are not intrinsically evil, but he tries to get man to do things in a twisted or backwards way which God did not intend.

So, in the case of Adam and Eve, God banned them from the Garden so that they could eat from the tree of life and live forever in their fallen condition.

[steve7150]

But it seems that even though the tree of life was placed right in the Garden along with the tree of knowledge of good and evil, Adam and Eve weren't aware it. God would probably have asked them to eat from it after they had matured. But the serpent tempted them to do things in reverse and to eat from the tree of knowledge which God had forbidden until they had matured and eaten from the tree of life. This is the way of the devil. Often his tempations are not intrinsically evil, but he tries to get man to do things in a twisted or backwards way which God did not intend.







God did not intend? How could Satan be allowed to tempt Eve if God did not intend it? Eve was innocent , inexperienced with evil and deception yet God either allows or perhaps arranges for Satan (the master of deception) to tempt an innocent women who had lusts within her before Satan ever appeared to try and resist the devil.
It seems to me a part of maturing is in fact experiencing evil. "Knowing good and evil they have become like us." God is loving, so much that he doesn't keep us in a child-like state forever but arranges for us to grow up in the best way possible regarding maturation which is to experience the actual contrasts in life.

[Paidion]

I am not sure whether or not I am reading you correctly, Steve. But it seems to me that you are saying that God arranged for Adam and Eve to sin so that they could mature.
Doesn't this make God the author of sin? If so, this seems very odd indeed! He arranges for man to sin, and yet condemns man when he does so.
I suppose you will now refer me to Romans 9:6-24 with the key question, "Who are you, man, to reply against God?"

[steve7150]

I am not sure whether or not I am reading you correctly, Steve. But it seems to me that you are saying that God arranged for Adam and Eve to sin so that they could mature.
Doesn't this make God the author of sin? If so, this seems very odd indeed! He arranges for man to sin, and yet condemns man when he does so. Image
I suppose you will now refer me to Romans 9:6-24 with the key question, "Who are you, man, to reply against God?"






Sometimes parents know they have to kick the son out of the house so he can make his own way in the world otherwise he might never mature. So however you want to phrase it , i think God decided it was time to kick the kids out of the house.
Adam and Eve sinned but God did arrange the circumstances that this was inevitable IMO. This might seem hard to accept but the bible does say that Jesus sacrifice was foreordained before the foundation of the world. (1st Peter 1.18 - 20). God also established the Law of Moses knowing it could not be kept perfectly because it also led to Christ.