By 'my fallen nature' I mean simply the fact that I am part of corrupted creation. I have sinful desires.
Didn't Eve have these desires before she ate the fruit?
"The the women saw that the tree was good for fruit" Gen 3.6 (lust of the flesh)
"delightful to look at" 3.6 (lust of the eyes)
"desirable for obtaining wisdom" 3.6 (Pride)
Jesus says that lust of the flesh was sinful and Eve seemed to have it in her before she made a move and Eve was made from Adam.
Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?
Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?
When I sin, I'm using my free will PROVOKED BY 1 of 3 things
1) My fallen nature
2) Wordliness/peer-pressure
3) A tempter (ie. satan or demons)
When Eve sinned, she made a free will PROVOKED, but did NOT have #1 or #2, as I understand it. But she did have #3 (in the form of the serpent and, to a lesser extent, in the tree itself).
Assuming Satan was not created as Satan but fell, perhaps he didn't have an actual fallen nature but a "will" which was vulnerable to temptation. Perhaps the same as Adam and Eve. The concept of free will i'm not sure is really biblical. It's used so often that it's just accepted without question because the only option is assumed to be Calvinism. Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle.
1) My fallen nature
2) Wordliness/peer-pressure
3) A tempter (ie. satan or demons)
When Eve sinned, she made a free will PROVOKED, but did NOT have #1 or #2, as I understand it. But she did have #3 (in the form of the serpent and, to a lesser extent, in the tree itself).
Assuming Satan was not created as Satan but fell, perhaps he didn't have an actual fallen nature but a "will" which was vulnerable to temptation. Perhaps the same as Adam and Eve. The concept of free will i'm not sure is really biblical. It's used so often that it's just accepted without question because the only option is assumed to be Calvinism. Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle.
Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?
You seem to be assuming that "The Fall" only took place in the precise moment she ate the fruit. I would say that "The Fall" was that entire process. I don't think Adam/Eve had any of these lusts prior to being tempted in that direction.steve7150 wrote:
Didn't Eve have these desires before she ate the fruit?
"The the women saw that the tree was good for fruit" Gen 3.6 (lust of the flesh)
"delightful to look at" 3.6 (lust of the eyes)
"desirable for obtaining wisdom" 3.6 (Pride)
Jesus says that lust of the flesh was sinful and Eve seemed to have it in her before she made a move and Eve was made from Adam.
Ok... if we say Satan didn't have a fallen nature, but a 'will' that was vulnerabhle to temptation, my original question remains just in a different form. Who tempted him then?Assuming Satan was not created as Satan but fell, perhaps he didn't have an actual fallen nature but a "will" which was vulnerable to temptation. Perhaps the same as Adam and Eve. The concept of free will i'm not sure is really biblical. It's used so often that it's just accepted without question because the only option is assumed to be Calvinism. Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle.
I'm not really sure how free will is not biblical either. I don't know a book of the Bible that doesn't assume it.
A topic like this, I realize, requires careful nuance and I am thinking that my response to you is a bit lazy. But it is past 2am and I'm willing to focus more in the near future if you wish to dialogue on these issues.
Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?
You seem to be assuming that "The Fall" only took place in the precise moment she ate the fruit. I would say that "The Fall" was that entire process. I don't think Adam/Eve had any of these lusts prior to being tempted in that direction.
Assuming Satan was not created as Satan but fell, perhaps he didn't have an actual fallen nature but a "will" which was vulnerable to temptation. Perhaps the same as Adam and Eve. The concept of free will i'm not sure is really biblical. It's used so often that it's just accepted without question because the only option is assumed to be Calvinism. Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle.
Ok... if we say Satan didn't have a fallen nature, but a 'will' that was vulnerabhle to temptation, my original question remains just in a different form. Who tempted him then?
If Satan was tempted i guess it wasn't an external being but the lust within Satan. My point is that we assume free will because in the bible we are told to make the right choice. Choose life over death but that doesn't necessarily mean our will is free from temptation or influence and is it because of a "fall" or was it always there? If our will is vulnerable to influence is it free? Is that the definition of free?
So it sounds to me that Eve was influenced by her own lusts inside her because these emotions were already there prior to Satan and prior to the tree, and if Satan did fall he may have been influenced by his own lust for power not by anything external.
In Genesis when it says God made something and it was "good" what does "good" really mean? Does good mean "perfect" or maybe it was good for the purpose God intended it for?
Assuming Satan was not created as Satan but fell, perhaps he didn't have an actual fallen nature but a "will" which was vulnerable to temptation. Perhaps the same as Adam and Eve. The concept of free will i'm not sure is really biblical. It's used so often that it's just accepted without question because the only option is assumed to be Calvinism. Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle.
Ok... if we say Satan didn't have a fallen nature, but a 'will' that was vulnerabhle to temptation, my original question remains just in a different form. Who tempted him then?
If Satan was tempted i guess it wasn't an external being but the lust within Satan. My point is that we assume free will because in the bible we are told to make the right choice. Choose life over death but that doesn't necessarily mean our will is free from temptation or influence and is it because of a "fall" or was it always there? If our will is vulnerable to influence is it free? Is that the definition of free?
So it sounds to me that Eve was influenced by her own lusts inside her because these emotions were already there prior to Satan and prior to the tree, and if Satan did fall he may have been influenced by his own lust for power not by anything external.
In Genesis when it says God made something and it was "good" what does "good" really mean? Does good mean "perfect" or maybe it was good for the purpose God intended it for?
Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?
I'm still a little confused by the idea that free will ALONE can account for sin. Even if we were created with the potential for certain lusts, my question from the beginning has been WHAT does it take to get us to act on such lusts? The overall message of Scripture seems to be that creation was created in right relationship to God and then something went wrong, no? What prompted this wrongness? In the case of Adam, it was prompted by pressure from the world (Eve). In the case of Eve, it was prompted by a tempter's appeal to her flesh. But that brings us to the more difficult question which I posed... what prompted the supposed 'wrongness' of the tempter himself?
To my mind, which I know is flawed and might just be missing something obvious, it is not enough to simply say that he freely chose to rebel. What prompted him to freely choose that? If a capacity for lust was, by nature, present, what provoked that capacity to be actualized?
My own theory, in answer to this question, is that the being we call Satan was created as a testing angel. This test provided Eve the opportunity to fail. The Eve provided Adam that same opportunity. And I believe the failure of Eve came to be viewed as a victory by the testing agent. He took pride in tripping them up. His test led to our fall. Our fall led to his.
But it's just a theory... with its own issues.
To my mind, which I know is flawed and might just be missing something obvious, it is not enough to simply say that he freely chose to rebel. What prompted him to freely choose that? If a capacity for lust was, by nature, present, what provoked that capacity to be actualized?
My own theory, in answer to this question, is that the being we call Satan was created as a testing angel. This test provided Eve the opportunity to fail. The Eve provided Adam that same opportunity. And I believe the failure of Eve came to be viewed as a victory by the testing agent. He took pride in tripping them up. His test led to our fall. Our fall led to his.
But it's just a theory... with its own issues.
Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?
I'm still a little confused by the idea that free will ALONE can account for sin. Even if we were created with the potential for certain lusts, my question from the beginning has been WHAT does it take to get us to act on such lusts? The overall message of Scripture seems to be that creation was created in right relationship to God and then something went wrong, no?
I have to go now, but this is the crux of the issue meaning did something really go wrong or did something actually go right. Right on schedule.
I have to go now, but this is the crux of the issue meaning did something really go wrong or did something actually go right. Right on schedule.
Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?
I came across these questions recently-- they may or may not be relevant to the discussion-- but interesting nonetheless:
---As sin presupposes temptation of some sort, who tempted a holy angel to sin?
---If an angel could sin without a devil to tempt him, may we not sin without a devil to tempt us?
---If a holy angel was tempted to sin by surrounding evil, is heaven a holy place?
---If an angel was tempted by evil passions, could he have been holy?
TK
---As sin presupposes temptation of some sort, who tempted a holy angel to sin?
---If an angel could sin without a devil to tempt him, may we not sin without a devil to tempt us?
---If a holy angel was tempted to sin by surrounding evil, is heaven a holy place?
---If an angel was tempted by evil passions, could he have been holy?
TK
Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?
There are two unfortunate trends in the Western world today regarding Satan the devil, who is mentioned in the New Testament as an unrelenting adversary and enemy of God and humanity. Most people are unaware or discount the devil’s role in creating chaos, suffering and evil. For many people, the idea of a real devil is just a remnant of ancient superstition or, at best, a metaphor representing evil in the world.
I searched in the Scripture elsewhere that show Satan is created being and I found no single verse to support that God created Satan.
So, how did the sin originates? Rom 8:5-7 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Gal 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, sedition, heresies,
envying, murders, drunkenness, revelling, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (KJV)
Isaiah 14:3-23 and Ezekiel 28:1-19 are sometimes said to contain descriptions of the devil’s origin as a angel who sinned. Some of the details can be read as applying to the devil. However, the context of these passages indicates that much of the material is referring to the vanity and pride of human kings—the kings of Babylon and Tyre. Perhaps the point in both passages is that the human kings are being manipulated by the devil, and they are mirror images of his evil intents and his hatred of God. To speak of the spiritual leader, Satan, is to speak of his human agents, the kings, all in one breath. It would be a way of saying that the devil rules the world.
What is Jesus words regarding Satan? Mar 3:23-24 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.(KJV)
Satan is a parable, a metaphor and not a fallen angel Isaiah 14:12 which exist in a child’s mind Ezekiel 28:13-15 to be develop as man mature while the tree of knowledge (earthly wisdom) grew and knew the knowledge of good and evil..
I searched in the Scripture elsewhere that show Satan is created being and I found no single verse to support that God created Satan.
So, how did the sin originates? Rom 8:5-7 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Gal 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, sedition, heresies,
envying, murders, drunkenness, revelling, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (KJV)
Isaiah 14:3-23 and Ezekiel 28:1-19 are sometimes said to contain descriptions of the devil’s origin as a angel who sinned. Some of the details can be read as applying to the devil. However, the context of these passages indicates that much of the material is referring to the vanity and pride of human kings—the kings of Babylon and Tyre. Perhaps the point in both passages is that the human kings are being manipulated by the devil, and they are mirror images of his evil intents and his hatred of God. To speak of the spiritual leader, Satan, is to speak of his human agents, the kings, all in one breath. It would be a way of saying that the devil rules the world.
What is Jesus words regarding Satan? Mar 3:23-24 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.(KJV)
Satan is a parable, a metaphor and not a fallen angel Isaiah 14:12 which exist in a child’s mind Ezekiel 28:13-15 to be develop as man mature while the tree of knowledge (earthly wisdom) grew and knew the knowledge of good and evil..
__________________
How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! Isaiah 52:7
How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! Isaiah 52:7
Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?
I came across these questions recently-- they may or may not be relevant to the discussion-- but interesting nonetheless:
---As sin presupposes temptation of some sort, who tempted a holy angel to sin?
---If an angel could sin without a devil to tempt him, may we not sin without a devil to tempt us?
---If a holy angel was tempted to sin by surrounding evil, is heaven a holy place?
---If an angel was tempted by evil passions, could he have been holy?
TK,
I don't think angels are holy but to your second point , i think we certainly can sin by giving in to our own lusts. I was trying to point out that Eve's lusts were accelerated by Satan's persuasiveness but her evil desires were in her before Satan said a word. Isn't it likely Eve would have sinned sooner or later and since she was made from Adam , the same goes for him too.
Lastly the tree of good and evil had both good and evil together in the same tree. God could have put good and evil in different trees but he didn't, which may suggest that you can't have one without the other.
---As sin presupposes temptation of some sort, who tempted a holy angel to sin?
---If an angel could sin without a devil to tempt him, may we not sin without a devil to tempt us?
---If a holy angel was tempted to sin by surrounding evil, is heaven a holy place?
---If an angel was tempted by evil passions, could he have been holy?
TK,
I don't think angels are holy but to your second point , i think we certainly can sin by giving in to our own lusts. I was trying to point out that Eve's lusts were accelerated by Satan's persuasiveness but her evil desires were in her before Satan said a word. Isn't it likely Eve would have sinned sooner or later and since she was made from Adam , the same goes for him too.
Lastly the tree of good and evil had both good and evil together in the same tree. God could have put good and evil in different trees but he didn't, which may suggest that you can't have one without the other.
Re: Is Satan's 1st Sin even Possible?
steve7150 wrote:I don't think angels are holy but to your second point , i think we certainly can sin by giving in to our own lusts. I was trying to point out that Eve's lusts were accelerated by Satan's persuasiveness but her evil desires were in her before Satan said a word. Isn't it likely Eve would have sinned sooner or later and since she was made from Adam , the same goes for him too.
Lastly the tree of good and evil had both good and evil together in the same tree. God could have put good and evil in different trees but he didn't, which may suggest that you can't have one without the other.
IMHO, I think man certainly sinned by his carnal mind, and there are no Satan which are illustrated as serpent that deceived Eve.
Spiritually, the tree of life and tree of knowledge of good and evil is the mind and spirit which are implanted in every man. The tree of life is the life or Spirit from God Proverbs 3:18 and the tree of knowledge of good and evil is our mind which were being divided between good and evil when it function regarding to the desire of flesh. It cannot be separated but we could let the Spirit of God to reign in ourselves to defeat the desire of the flesh which are enmity against God. Romans 8:6-7
This why Jesus speak in parable; Mar 3:23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
Mar 3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom.
which may suggest that you can't have one without the other or the body can’t live without the mind and Spirit.
__________________
How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! Isaiah 52:7
How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! Isaiah 52:7