Rick Warren and the Purpose Driven Church?
Rick Warren and the Purpose Driven Church?
Any opinons, any thoughts, anyone familiar with his methods?
Re: Rick Warren and the Purpose Driven Church?
I've read The Purpose Driven Church a couple of times and skimmed through The Purpose Driven Life. They are actually pretty simple books conveying basic truths.
The Purpose Driven Church is a book that describes Rick Warren's view of what the church should be all about. He identifies 5 key purposes of the church from Acts 2:42-47. The church exists for...
Outreach
Worship
Fellowship
Discipleship
Service
He says that most churches tend to pick just 1 of those 5 purposes, but that a healthy church will make sure it balances all 5.
He tries to create a church where people will be moved to commit to membership THEN commit to maturity THEN commit to ministry and THEN commit to MISSIONS. In other words, he's attempting to move people from being part of the broad community, to being part of the crowd (at church), to being part of the congregation, to being committed, to being core members of the body of Christ in that church.
Purpose Driven Church is a fairly quick read and I think it's an underrated book. Church leaders, in my opinion, would benefit by reading it.
Purpose Driven Life, of course, is a more recent phenomenon designed for individuals to become 'purpose driven.' I skimmed it, seeing as how it is so basic. I think it would be a helpful book for newish Christians. It's almost like a modern catechism filled with simple Bible principles.
Of course, some people really dislike Rick Warren. I'm not sure why. I've almost always been impressed with his heart and his words.
The Purpose Driven Church is a book that describes Rick Warren's view of what the church should be all about. He identifies 5 key purposes of the church from Acts 2:42-47. The church exists for...
Outreach
Worship
Fellowship
Discipleship
Service
He says that most churches tend to pick just 1 of those 5 purposes, but that a healthy church will make sure it balances all 5.
He tries to create a church where people will be moved to commit to membership THEN commit to maturity THEN commit to ministry and THEN commit to MISSIONS. In other words, he's attempting to move people from being part of the broad community, to being part of the crowd (at church), to being part of the congregation, to being committed, to being core members of the body of Christ in that church.
Purpose Driven Church is a fairly quick read and I think it's an underrated book. Church leaders, in my opinion, would benefit by reading it.
Purpose Driven Life, of course, is a more recent phenomenon designed for individuals to become 'purpose driven.' I skimmed it, seeing as how it is so basic. I think it would be a helpful book for newish Christians. It's almost like a modern catechism filled with simple Bible principles.
Of course, some people really dislike Rick Warren. I'm not sure why. I've almost always been impressed with his heart and his words.
Re: Rick Warren and the Purpose Driven Church?
He tries to create a church where people will be moved to commit to membership THEN commit to maturity THEN commit to ministry and THEN commit to MISSIONS. In other words, he's attempting to move people from being part of the broad community, to being part of the crowd (at church), to being part of the congregation, to being committed, to being core members of the body of Christ in that church.
Matt , thank you for responding and i hope you are right. At my church i noticed a few weeks or maybe months ago the music started to get more upbeat , more energetic which i did'nt mind because i like that type of music but there was a change. Then at home study our elder asked us to watch a DVD by Warren called 40 days of love over a few weeks which i really liked. Also this elser asked me to lunch recently as i'm one of the bible study leaders and he just went over some general things with me which was nice but also a first.
Then about 2 weeks ago a church member comes up to me complaining about the music and the direction the church is taking and claiming it's becoming one of those new Purpose Driven Churches created by Rick Warren. I thought she was overreacting and tried to reason with her because quite frankly i'm getting tired of divisiveness in Christianity. She gave me a pamplet by Larry Spargimino caqlled "What You Need To Know About the Purpose Driven Church" and a book by Noah Hutchings called "The Dark Side of the Purpose Driven Church."
To try to briefly describe the criticisms for now they are:
The concept of the PDC is that the Pastor becomes like the CEO of the church and business oriented marketing techniques are used to grow the church. It becomes more like a nightclub or even a disco enviornment where the cross and hymm music are replaced with loud pulsating music with flash and glitz. Bible reading gradually gets replaced by brief scripture quotes flashed accross the screen from different bible versions seemingly chosen for the sole purpose of supporting a specific concept. Even the message bible is used which is barely a translation. As older more traditional members object to this change they are encouraged to leave because Warren calls them "old pillars" and sometimes a new foundation is needed.
Bible study is replaced by a home socialization network in which members are encouraged to work together on projects. Doctrines of Christianity are not discussed as they are to devisive and that's why Warren uses the newer translations as they reduce greatly the number of times they use the word "doctrine." The gospel becomes a tool for promoting good works like feeding the poor , eradicating poverty and disease and improving education which is fine but salvation is not pushed.
The fact that men are sinners and in need of a Savior is not promoted but God's love is and the fact He has a purpose for each of us is.
This is a very brief summary of the PDC concept according to the literature i have read. I have no dog in the fight . i just want to know what is going on at my church and apparently at many others.
Matt , thank you for responding and i hope you are right. At my church i noticed a few weeks or maybe months ago the music started to get more upbeat , more energetic which i did'nt mind because i like that type of music but there was a change. Then at home study our elder asked us to watch a DVD by Warren called 40 days of love over a few weeks which i really liked. Also this elser asked me to lunch recently as i'm one of the bible study leaders and he just went over some general things with me which was nice but also a first.
Then about 2 weeks ago a church member comes up to me complaining about the music and the direction the church is taking and claiming it's becoming one of those new Purpose Driven Churches created by Rick Warren. I thought she was overreacting and tried to reason with her because quite frankly i'm getting tired of divisiveness in Christianity. She gave me a pamplet by Larry Spargimino caqlled "What You Need To Know About the Purpose Driven Church" and a book by Noah Hutchings called "The Dark Side of the Purpose Driven Church."
To try to briefly describe the criticisms for now they are:
The concept of the PDC is that the Pastor becomes like the CEO of the church and business oriented marketing techniques are used to grow the church. It becomes more like a nightclub or even a disco enviornment where the cross and hymm music are replaced with loud pulsating music with flash and glitz. Bible reading gradually gets replaced by brief scripture quotes flashed accross the screen from different bible versions seemingly chosen for the sole purpose of supporting a specific concept. Even the message bible is used which is barely a translation. As older more traditional members object to this change they are encouraged to leave because Warren calls them "old pillars" and sometimes a new foundation is needed.
Bible study is replaced by a home socialization network in which members are encouraged to work together on projects. Doctrines of Christianity are not discussed as they are to devisive and that's why Warren uses the newer translations as they reduce greatly the number of times they use the word "doctrine." The gospel becomes a tool for promoting good works like feeding the poor , eradicating poverty and disease and improving education which is fine but salvation is not pushed.
The fact that men are sinners and in need of a Savior is not promoted but God's love is and the fact He has a purpose for each of us is.
This is a very brief summary of the PDC concept according to the literature i have read. I have no dog in the fight . i just want to know what is going on at my church and apparently at many others.
Last edited by steve7150 on Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Rick Warren and the Purpose Driven Church?
In my opinion those books are over-reacting
Here's my point, even if someone doesn't like the way Warren is leading the church he pastors, Warren never suggests that other churches copy him inch for inch. In fact he discourages it. He simply shares what the purposes of the church are and his method for accomplishing those purposes.
I'll try to address the concerns 1 by 1
1. Pastor becomes like a CEO
Warren is the pastor of one of the biggest churches in America. I do suppose there are a variety of ways in which he is like a CEO. I also suppose there are some ways in which Paul or James would have been considered to be like a CEO. I suppose the biggest exception with Rick Warren being called a CEO is that he, like Paul, refuses to take on a salary from the church. In fact, he has paid back every penny the church has given him in salary from previous years and practices reverse tithing on all his income (gives 90%).
2. Church becomes like a nightclub
This is a pretty silly argument. Yes, growing churches tend to have louder, more contemporary music. But this is simply a matter of preference.
3. Bible verses are used out of context and via bad translations
Rick Warren does use the message bible quite often so that is a fair critique. He certainly doesn't insist that others use it. As for the debate between topical preaching and exegetical preaching, I'd say that what is important is that the Scriptures spoken are spoken of rightly... and that can be done topically or exegetically. Rick has a whole book written on his bible study methods. If you're interested you could check it out. I think it's a pretty decent method.
4. Older/traditional members are encouraged to leave
I would assume that people who hate the music and hate the lack of formal attire, etc might leave on their own accord, especially if they come to church to have their preferences met rather than to worship God, primarily.
5. Doctrinal discussion is replaced by work projects
God forbid! I actually think Rick Warren's model is closer to the early church model than the traditional church which talks about doctrine endlessly but never DOES anything about it. In my opinion, Rick Warren work against AIDS, poverty, etc is an awesome demonstration of the power of the Gospel!
6. Doctrine of sin is ignored and replaced by the idea that God is love and has a purpose for us
I think Warren is quite clear about the doctrine of sin. And God is love and does have a purpose that we can be part of.
I would suggest that rather than trying to find out everything there is to know about Rick Warren, you simply spend time in thoughtful prayer and discussion about the changes going on in your own church. Analyze each change. Is it sinful? What are the motivations behind it? Does it water down the true Gospel or does it just adapt to the culture without sacrificing truth. Does it meet people where they're at better than older models? Etc. Take each change on a case for case basis with an open mind and a heart dedicating to pleasing God.
Here's my point, even if someone doesn't like the way Warren is leading the church he pastors, Warren never suggests that other churches copy him inch for inch. In fact he discourages it. He simply shares what the purposes of the church are and his method for accomplishing those purposes.
I'll try to address the concerns 1 by 1
1. Pastor becomes like a CEO
Warren is the pastor of one of the biggest churches in America. I do suppose there are a variety of ways in which he is like a CEO. I also suppose there are some ways in which Paul or James would have been considered to be like a CEO. I suppose the biggest exception with Rick Warren being called a CEO is that he, like Paul, refuses to take on a salary from the church. In fact, he has paid back every penny the church has given him in salary from previous years and practices reverse tithing on all his income (gives 90%).
2. Church becomes like a nightclub
This is a pretty silly argument. Yes, growing churches tend to have louder, more contemporary music. But this is simply a matter of preference.
3. Bible verses are used out of context and via bad translations
Rick Warren does use the message bible quite often so that is a fair critique. He certainly doesn't insist that others use it. As for the debate between topical preaching and exegetical preaching, I'd say that what is important is that the Scriptures spoken are spoken of rightly... and that can be done topically or exegetically. Rick has a whole book written on his bible study methods. If you're interested you could check it out. I think it's a pretty decent method.
4. Older/traditional members are encouraged to leave
I would assume that people who hate the music and hate the lack of formal attire, etc might leave on their own accord, especially if they come to church to have their preferences met rather than to worship God, primarily.
5. Doctrinal discussion is replaced by work projects
God forbid! I actually think Rick Warren's model is closer to the early church model than the traditional church which talks about doctrine endlessly but never DOES anything about it. In my opinion, Rick Warren work against AIDS, poverty, etc is an awesome demonstration of the power of the Gospel!
6. Doctrine of sin is ignored and replaced by the idea that God is love and has a purpose for us
I think Warren is quite clear about the doctrine of sin. And God is love and does have a purpose that we can be part of.
I would suggest that rather than trying to find out everything there is to know about Rick Warren, you simply spend time in thoughtful prayer and discussion about the changes going on in your own church. Analyze each change. Is it sinful? What are the motivations behind it? Does it water down the true Gospel or does it just adapt to the culture without sacrificing truth. Does it meet people where they're at better than older models? Etc. Take each change on a case for case basis with an open mind and a heart dedicating to pleasing God.
Re: Rick Warren and the Purpose Driven Church?
I would suggest that rather than trying to find out everything there is to know about Rick Warren, you simply spend time in thoughtful prayer and discussion about the changes going on in your own church. Analyze each change. Is it sinful? What are the motivations behind it? Does it water down the true Gospel or does it just adapt to the culture without sacrificing truth. Does it meet people where they're at better than older models? Etc. Take each change on a case for case basis with an open mind and a heart dedicating to pleasing God.
OK Matt, thanks for your responses i'll consider what you said.
Any other feedback would also be appreciated, thanks.
OK Matt, thanks for your responses i'll consider what you said.
Any other feedback would also be appreciated, thanks.
Re: Rick Warren and the Purpose Driven Church?
I'm not sure I understand this point. So it's ok to drastically change the music, knowing it could offend the long time church-goer but not caring about that since it's done in the name of bringing the younger crowd in? Isn't that being offensive for no good reason? And if the younger crowd only comes because of the music then are they really there for Jesus? It would seem obvious that they are not. Nor can it be found anywhere in scripture that we sould get our ideas about music from the worldly culture. And I'm one who likes loud music! But I would never press my personal preference of loud music on a congregation who for years enjoyed a different style of music.mattrose wrote: 4. Older/traditional members are encouraged to leave
I would assume that people who hate the music and hate the lack of formal attire, etc might leave on their own accord, especially if they come to church to have their preferences met rather than to worship God, primarily.
He will not fail nor be discouraged till He has established justice in the earth. (Isaiah 42:4)
Re: Rick Warren and the Purpose Driven Church?
Way to go Sean!!! It's so nice to hear someone say he wouldn't press his personal preference on others, which is what so many people want to do. "We can't do that because I don't like it!" Personally, I don't like loud music, though I listen to just about every genre there is, except for rap and hip-hop. I like contemporary Christian music, too. Our church mixes newer songs with standard hymns and our previous pastor used to show videos of contemporary Christian songs that fit the message that morning. Loved that, and many of the older members did too, they were usually very beautiful to watch as well as hear.Sean wrote:mattrose wrote: I'm not sure I understand this point. So it's ok to drastically change the music, knowing it could offend the long time church-goer but not caring about that since it's done in the name of bringing the younger crowd in? Isn't that being offensive for no good reason? And if the younger crowd only comes because of the music then are they really there for Jesus? It would seem obvious that they are not. Nor can it be found anywhere in scripture that we sould get our ideas about music from the worldly culture. And I'm one who likes loud music! But I would never press my personal preference of loud music on a congregation who for years enjoyed a different style of music.
Re: Rick Warren and the Purpose Driven Church?
I didn't say any of what you argued againstSean wrote:I'm not sure I understand this point. So it's ok to drastically change the music, knowing it could offend the long time church-goer but not caring about that since it's done in the name of bringing the younger crowd in? Isn't that being offensive for no good reason? And if the younger crowd only comes because of the music then are they really there for Jesus? It would seem obvious that they are not. Nor can it be found anywhere in scripture that we sould get our ideas about music from the worldly culture. And I'm one who likes loud music! But I would never press my personal preference of loud music on a congregation who for years enjoyed a different style of music.
I have no idea if Rick Warren 'drastically' changed the music at the church he pastors. I would imagine it was a slow transition that fit with the preferences of a lot of people in the church.
I have no idea if Rick Warren was 'not caring' about those who liked formal attire and hymn-singing. Perhaps they had an alternative service that offered those features (as many churches do, like my own).
I have no idea about those things. And, most likely, neither do you.
Every church gets its music from the culture. It is not optional. Some of us just prefer the 'culture' of years past.
Rick Warren treats Sunday morning, it seems to me, as Jesus treated the large outdoor crowd attracting sermon. It was a chance to present the Gospel to a bunch of people that had some level of interest in order to create an environment where people with whom the Spirit is doing business can align themselves with the Gospel (and subsequently enter into small groups, service, etc.).
It seems to me that some pure assumptions were made about Rick Warren in your post. A judgment of his heart without knowing the man personally (I assume). I know this is from years ago, but I wonder if you'd say the same things today. I don't know the man personally either, but as a brother in Christ, I'd be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on issues of the heart behind some of his methods. Hearing him speak many times and reading a couple of his books, I have no reason to believe he has any interest in pressing his personal interests or being offensive for no reason!
Re: Rick Warren and the Purpose Driven Church?
It's good you didn't respond in haste, Matt.... (Just teasing)
Regards, Brenden.
Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]
Re: Rick Warren and the Purpose Driven Church?
Everytime I hear the words "Purpose-driven church" I think - 'I don't want to be driven by anything' - I want to be led by the Spirit of God. When I am with the brethren, I pray that we seek the Lord and what He wants to do with our gathering.
I did look at the book but it did not draw me in to read it. Does that make sense?
I did look at the book but it did not draw me in to read it. Does that make sense?
"Anything you think you know about God that you can't find in the person of Jesus, you have reason to question.” - anonymous