Dispensationalism and Historical Premillenialism

[RND]

RND,


I wrote, concerning your original post (above):

"This may indeed describe the SDA view, but it does not correctly describe historic premillennialism."

Then you responded: "Sure it does", and (strangely) posted the following:

End times beliefs among Protestants:

Historical Premillennialism: This belief was held by a large percentage of Christians "during the first three centuries of the Christian era, and is found in the works of Papias, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Methodius, Commodianus, and Lactanitus." 2 The Antichrist first appears on earth and the seven year Tribulation begins. Next comes the Rapture. Christ and his Church return to earth to rule for a Millennium. The faithful will spend eternity in the New Jerusalem. It is a gigantic cubical structure, some 1,380 miles height, width and depth, which will have descended to Earth. New Jerusalem is a.k.a. Celestial city, City of God, Heavenly Jerusalem, Holy city, Shining City on a Hill, Tabernacle of God, Zion, etc. The forces of evil will have been conquered. The faithful will live during this thousand years of peace in Jerusalem, while occupying spiritual bodies. After this period, all people are judged.

When you continue to claim that your original post characterizes "historical premillennialism"—and then post information that contradicts your original post—you give the appearance of carelessness of either thought, or reading, or both.

Your first post clearly said that historical premillennialism places the rise of Antichrist at the end of the tribulation, and the appearing of Christ at the end of the millennium. I corrected you, and the material you posted contradicts you. Yet you are not sufficiently perceptive (or, perhaps, sufficiently humble) to acknowledge that you made a mistake. This has been your manner on many threads. It does not elevate our confidence in your honesty, your authority to answer questions accurately, nor your wisdom. Why not just admit that you made a mistake. Call it a typographical error, or an inaccurate wording too-hastily posted. But please do not try to tell us that what you said originally was correct. We can all read it on this very page.

I neglected to add the word "that." Happens.

"Historical Premillennialism believes the "antichrist" will appear after a seven year tribulation, and the resurrection comes at the appearing of Christ after (that) a thousand-year reign of the saints, i.e. believers."

Once my statement is read with the word "that" placed where I neglected to add it my take on "Historical Premillennialism is quite accurate. This is because many that believe Historical Premillennialism believe that "Daniel's seventieth week" has yet to be fulfilled.

[steve]

RND,

Thanks for clarifying this. I can see how such a mistake can be made. It makes your statement about the historical premillennial position on the appearing of Christ quite accurate. Your statement about the antichrist appearing at the end of the tribulation still does not represent the view of historical premillennialists, however.

[RND]

RND,

Thanks for clarifying this. I can see how such a mistake can be made. It makes your statement about the historical premillennial position on the appearing of Christ quite accurate. Your statement about the antichrist appearing at the end of the tribulation still does not represent the view of historical premillennialists, however.

Thanks, Steve. I can certainly see where certain historical premillennialists would agree with you regarding the antichrist but there are those that believe that the 70th week of Daniel 9:24-27 has not happened yet do indeed believe as I mentioned.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm#hmil

Definition:
Historical premillennialists place the return of Christ just before the millennium and just after a time of great apostasy and tribulation. After the millennium, Satan will be loosed and Gog and Magog will rise against the kingdom of God; this will be immediately followed by the final judgment. While similar in some respects to the dispensational variety (in that they hold to Christ's return being previous the establishment of a thousand-year earthly reign), historical premillennialism differs in significant ways (notably in their method of interpreting Scripture).

Features and Distinctions:

* Favored method of interpretation: grammatico-historical.
* Israel and the church: The church is the fulfillment of Israel.
* Kingdom of God: present through the Spirit since Pentecost - to be experienced by sight during the millennium after Christ's return.
* The Rapture: The saints, living and dead, shall meet the Lord in the clouds immediately preceding the millennial reign.
* The Millennium: Christ will return to institute a thousand-year reign on earth. The Millennium will see the re-establishment of temple worship and sacrifice as a remembrance of Christ's sacrifice.
* Major proponents: George Eldon Ladd, Walter Martin, John Warwick Montgomery, and Theodore Zahn.

Synopsis:
View the visual interpretation
The historical premillennialist's view interprets some prophecy in Scripture as having literal fulfillment while others demand a semi-symbolic fulfillment. As a case in point, the seal judgments (Revelation 6) are viewed as having fulfillment in the forces in history (rather than in future powers) by which God works out his redemptive and judicial purposes leading up to the end.

Rather than the belief of an imminent return of Christ, it is held that a number of historical events (e.g., the rise of the Beast and the False Prophet) must take place before Christ's Second Coming. This Second Coming will be accompanied by the resurrection and rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:15-18); this will inaugurate the millennial reign of Christ. The Jewish nation, while being perfectly able to join the church in the belief of a true faith in Christ, has no distinct redemptive plan as they would in the dispensational perspective. The duration of the millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:1-6) is unsure: literal or metaphorical.

Bibliography:

* Ladd, George Eldon. A Commentary on the Revelation. Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1972. (ISBN: 0802816843)
* Ladd, George Eldon. The Last Things: An Eschatology for Laymen. Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1982.
* Ladd, George Eldon. The Gospel of the Kingdom. Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1959. (ISBN: 0802812805)
* Culver, Robert Duncan. Histories & Prophecies of Daniel. Winona Lake, Indiana: BHM Books, 1980. (ISBN: 0-88469-131-4)
* Campbell, Donald K. and Townsend, Jeffrey L. A Case for Premillennialism: A New Consensus. Chicago: The Moody Press, 1992.

[steve]

I don't mean to bicker about trifles, but since, in the OP, Schoel was seeking information about the differences between dispensationalism and historic premillennialism, it is something that I would like to have answered correctly here. This requires some correction of your representations, since they were mistaken.

First, while it is true that many historic premillennialists today do believe that Daniel's 70th week is still future, and is to be identified with the tribulation period, this is not one of the differences between to two schools of thought. All dispensationalists also identify Daniel's 70th week with the future tribulation.

Second, since all premillennialists (whether historic or dispensational) believe that the return of Christ comes at the end of the tribulation—His coming being that which brings that period to its end—it is clear that no premillennialists believe the Antichrist rises to power at that time. They all believe that the Antichrist (who has been ruling the world during the previous three-and-a-half years) will be defeated and destroyed when Jesus returns, at the end of the tribulation. There is no possibility of a premillennialist of any kind believing that the rise of the Antichrist occurs at the same time as the second coming of Christ.

As a Bible teacher, in my earlier years, I have been both a dispensationalists and a historic premillennialist. I know what they believe. You are simply confused. Being wrong is not unforgivable. If there is anything unpardonable, it is refusing to admit when you are wrong.

There is no sense in continuing to debate this matter, since you are just mistaken. I will gladly give you $100 if you can locate an actual "historic premillennialist" who believes that the Antichrist will rise after the seven-year tribulation. Why not just say "Oops!" and drop the matter?

[RND]

Steve, one of the reasons why I can't say, "Opps!" is because of obvious statements such as this that you made, "First, while it is true that many historic premillennialists today do believe that Daniel's 70th week is still future, and is to be identified with the tribulation period, this is not one of the differences between to two schools of thought."

I never suggested that this was the "only" difference between the two different beliefs. It was just added as part of my understanding of what "historic premillennialist" believe. There is an obvious difference between what "premillenists" believe as opposed to "historic premillennialist." So I don't think I was necessarily incorrect, because your statement even suggests I wasn't. I will readily admit that there must be some "historic premillennialist" that don't believe the tribulation is a seven-year period, but what I am aware of is that many believe Daniel 9:24-27 is still in the future. That's all I was saying.

Just using the word Premillennialism opens a whole host of questions because it doesn't involve one single solitary set of general eschatological beliefs. There's Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Mid-Tribulation Rapture, Post-Tribulation Rapture all either Classic/historic, Pre-Wrath Rapture or Partial Rapture. I mean Premillennialism seems to have as many different teachings as 31 Flavors!

BTW, you can hold on to your $100 bucks because there are several different informational sites that discuss the difference, including the "seven year tribulation period:

When is the rapture?
The main superficial differences between the two premillennial views comes in the timing of the rapture and its nature. Almost all dispensational pre-mills look for a pretribulational rapture, whereby believers are taken away, off to enjoy the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, while the earth endures the seven year tribulation. For the historic pre-mills, the rapture, which takes place after the tribulation (which may or may not have been seven years) is viewed more as a welcoming party sent to greet the king outside the gates, and escort him back to establish the millennial earthly kingdom.

Thus the dispensational pre-mills see the church as being spared from the tribulation, while the historic pre-mills claim the church will be present during the tribulation, but will be spared the brunt of it. (Rev 3:10, 7:15).

Historical Premillennialism - a belief held by a large percentage of Christians during the first three centuries of Christianity. It is the belief that the Antichrist appears on earth and sets off the seven-year Tribulation. At the end of the seven years Christ comes, the saved are “raptured,” and his Church rules the Earth for a Millennium. During this thousand years of peace the faithful live in Jerusalem, occupying spiritual bodies. After this period, all people are judged. The faithful will spend eternity on a new earth, not in heaven.

Honestly Steve, it does look like you are being a bit trifle and bickering. Keep in mind that George Ladd in his book "The Blessed Hope" and Robert Gundry in his book "The Church and The Tribulation" both teach that the church will experience the seven year period which will conclude with the rapture of the church.

[SteveF]

RND wrote:

Historical Premillennialism believes the "antichrist" will appear after a seven year tribulation

RND, Steve has addressed this a couple of times. Do you believe the antichrist will appear after the tribulation? I don't find anything in your repsonses that indicates this is the case. In fact, in your answers it says the opposite:

the Antichrist appears on earth and sets off the seven-year Tribulation

If you don't have a response it looks like you might need to say "oops"...

[RND]

RND wrote:

Historical Premillennialism believes the "antichrist" will appear after a seven year tribulation

RND, Steve has addressed this a couple of times. Do you believe the antichrist will appear after the tribulation? I don't find anything in your repsonses that indicates this is the case. In fact, in your answers it says the opposite:

the Antichrist appears on earth and sets off the seven-year Tribulation

If you don't have a response it looks like you might need to say "oops"...

Already corrected.

I neglected to add the word "that." Happens.

"Historical Premillennialism believes the "antichrist" will appear after a seven year tribulation, and the resurrection comes at the appearing of Christ after (that) a thousand-year reign of the saints, i.e. believers."

Once my statement is read with the word "that" placed where I neglected to add it my take on "Historical Premillennialism is quite accurate. This is because many that believe Historical Premillennialism believe that "Daniel's seventieth week" has yet to be fulfilled.

[SteveF]

I wrote:

Do you believe the antichrist will appear after the tribulation?

First, I need to say oops myself. I meant to write "Do you think they believe the antichrist..."

RND, you corrected when Christ will appear but didn't correct when the antichrist will appear. That's the point Steve needed to provide further clarifcation on:

RND,

Thanks for clarifying this. I can see how such a mistake can be made. It makes your statement about the historical premillennial position on the appearing of Christ quite accurate. Your statement about the antichrist appearing at the end of the tribulation still does not represent the view of historical premillennialists, however.

[Mellontes]

There's plenty of room for you preterists in the amillenial camp.

I am very thankful to the amil position - at least for the short time that I was involved... Philip Mauro was a genius in many ways. In fact, when I was in a rural town (Port Perry, Ontario) I stumbled upon a book of his which predates his Gospel of the Kingdom, The Hope of Israel and Daniel's Seventy Weeks. It is a lessor known book called "The Number of Man" and is copyrighted 1909. Amillennialism got me out of the separate kingdom view - one for the church and one for Israel.

[RND]

I wrote:

Do you believe the antichrist will appear after the tribulation?

First, I need to say oops myself. I meant to write "Do you think they believe the antichrist..."

RND, you corrected when Christ will appear but didn't correct when the antichrist will appear. That's the point Steve needed to provide further clarifcation on:

RND,

Thanks for clarifying this. I can see how such a mistake can be made. It makes your statement about the historical premillennial position on the appearing of Christ quite accurate. Your statement about the antichrist appearing at the end of the tribulation still does not represent the view of historical premillennialists, however.

Guess I'm not the only human that posts here. I know of at least two now!

The reason I can't correct the point I made regarding "Historical Premillennialists" and the seven-year trib is that it has been my understanding that some, many (?) "Historical Premillennialists" believe the 70th week of Daniel 9:24-27 has not yet been fulfilled.