Sabbath Keeping (from "Roman Catholic and The Bible")

[RND]

RND,

I am not trying to tax your question-answering skills. It is just that you come here with assertions about what the Bible allegedly teaches, then, when your points are cross-examined, and you are asked for the scriptural case for your points, you give either no answer or you give irrelevant scriptures.

Steve, to you that observation would obviously be true. But when you think about what is being quoted from scripture it is obvious on my end that everything lines up.

You have your "opinion" I have my "opinion."

If you want to participate in this forum, I suggest that you do one of two things:

1) Learn to understand questions that are asked of you, and to understand arguments, and how to frame your own arguments so that they will support your contentions; or

Which I have done, quite clearly, in my "opinion."

2) Become a listener, merely, rather than a teacher.

I'm trying to do that for sure. But when I see obvious error being taught as 100% Gospel truth I have to say something. Your take on Hebrews 3 and 4 would be one such case. Even experienced non-sabbatarian scholars would tell you that your take on Hebrews 3 and 4 is incorrect.

Matthew Henry (a non-sabbatarian) said this about Hebrews 4:

"The rest, or sabbatism, which is the subject of the apostle's reasoning, and as to which he concludes that it remains to be enjoyed, is undoubtedly the heavenly rest, which remains to the people of God, and is opposed to a state of labour and trouble in this world."

Until you can participate in a discussion as one who can actually show that the scriptures support your position, you will do better not to assert your positions in a forum where they will be challenged with real biblical arguments.

Gee, that's confusing because I don't seem to see much referring of scripture on you end. Just alot of denials about what scripture says. Take Luke 4:16 for instance. You said:

You did not demionstrate that Jesus was a sabbath-keeper. You did demonstrate (what no one ever disputed) that Jesus, like Paul after Him) did go and preach in the synagogue on the sabbath (the only day that He would find an audience there).

The sabbath was always for the preaching of the Torah and tanakh Steve. The seventh-day sabbath was a "holy convocation" to the Lord. It was a "church" service.

Num 28:25 And on the seventh day ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work.

But preaching in a synagogue is never commanded in the Law, so this does not document that Jesus kept the sabbath in terms of its Old Testament requirements.

Steve, Leviticus and Numbers both required the seventh-day sabbath to be a "holy convocation." A gathering, and church service on the national "day off."

Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day [is] the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work [therein]: it [is] the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

The word convocation literally means assembly or "called out."

from 'qara'' (7121); something called out, i.e. a public meeting (the act, the persons, or the place); also a rehearsal:--assembly, calling, convocation, reading.

As I stated earlier the word church in Greek is Ekklesia which literally means "called out ones."

By the way, I do not recognize anything in your above post that resembles an answer to my questions. Please read them again, and answer directly.

Uh? You asked:

But do you actually attend a Jewish synagogue on the sabbath?

To which I replied, "No, I attend a SDA church on the sabbath." Was that in some way ambiguous?"

If there are no scriptures to support your case (which is the case), then there is no shame in saying something like, "I have stated my opinion. Though there is no scripture that directly makes my points, I am still convinced that I am correct." It is the honest approach. You would receive more respect from this correspondent if you chose it occasionally.

Likewise Steve. I gave you clear cut evidence from the scriptures that both Jew and gentile met on the sabbath regularly and you dismissed it, without using any scripture to counter what I said. For example you said:

The meeting by the river in Philippi was a Jewish congregation (Lydia was a Gentile God-fearer, who attended the Jewish meeting).

Right there you answered one of your questions yourself! Lydia was not the only Gentile God-fearer to ever darken the door of a Jewish synagogue. In fact lots of gentiles attended Jewish services. That answers your question perfectly Steve. But then you go on to say regarding my notations:

They are examples of evangelistic outreach conducted by Paul at the synagogue.

Where both Jews and gentiles congregated Steve. I know you think I'm being flip when I say this, but I'm not, but once the Jews and gentiles were converted by the Gospel of Jesus Christ what were they called?

These were not Christian meetings, which is why Paul's testimony was rejected there (Acts 18:6).

Paul's preaching was not rejected everywhere he went Steve, only some places. In other places it was accepted like a Sham-Wow soaks up water! The point being is that you can not provide one single solitary verse that show these "new converts" stopped meeting in the synagogue on the sabbath. You know why you can't Steve? Because none exist.

Once converted these gentiles and Jews still gathered on the sabbath.

[darinhouston]

The fact that people do so is because they either see that matter differently than Steve (or me) or out of tradition -- neither is justified in my opinion.

I'm sorry I'm not following you here. Are you saying no one is justified in viewing a situation differently than you Darin?

No -- I did not mean no one is unjustified in viewing a situation differently, but instead merely that the position that is different does not seem justified (i.e., the stated justification is insufficient to convince me). Perhaps, unconvincing" would be a better word, but I think you're looking too hard to find something disagreeable to disagree with.

[RND]

The fact that people do so is because they either see that matter differently than Steve (or me) or out of tradition -- neither is justified in my opinion.

I'm sorry I'm not following you here. Are you saying no one is justified in viewing a situation differently than you Darin?

No -- I did not mean no one is unjustified in viewing a situation differently, but instead merely that the position that is different does not seem justified (i.e., the stated justification is insufficient to convince me). Perhaps, unconvincing" would be a better word, but I think you're looking too hard to find something disagreeable to disagree with.

Well, that's certainly not true Darin, not looking to disagree....just looking for clarity that's all. I understand what you are saying a little better, taking into consideration the entire conversation including the one where this one was born from.

I'm happy to say I think we can have both though, clarity and disagreement, and still understand each other, respectfully.

[RND]

Re: Roman Catholic and The Bible.

Postby Allyn on Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:49 pm

As far as what the Bible teaches if today is today it is the Lord's day.

Heb. 3:7-15 -- So, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the desert, where your fathers tested and tried me and for 40 years saw what I did. This is why I was angry with that generation, and I said, "their hearts are always gone astray, and they have not known my ways." So I declared on oath in my anger, "They shall never enter my rest."
See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sins deceitfulness.

Allyn, that seems to be the reality of the situation.

Psa 118:24 This [is] the day [which] the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.

However, isn't the seventh-day sabbath the Lord's day?

Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, [from] doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking [thine own] words:

[Allyn]

Re: Roman Catholic and The Bible.

Postby Allyn on Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:49 pm

As far as what the Bible teaches if today is today it is the Lord's day.

Heb. 3:7-15 -- So, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the desert, where your fathers tested and tried me and for 40 years saw what I did. This is why I was angry with that generation, and I said, "their hearts are always gone astray, and they have not known my ways." So I declared on oath in my anger, "They shall never enter my rest."
See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sins deceitfulness.

Allyn, that seems to be the reality of the situation.

Psa 118:24 This [is] the day [which] the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.

However, isn't the seventh-day sabbath the Lord's day?

Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, [from] doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking [thine own] words:

Not under the New Covenant. If you want true rest in the Lord then you better be looking to have it everyday.

[Allyn]

RND,

If there is a Sabbath we are obligated to observe, then the Torah is where it is established, and Saturday would be the day. But when you go there to find the rule, you will discover you cannot follow what is said, because no temple exists, nor any Levites to direct it. Not only that but we do not mark time by the Jewish method anymore. Even the Jews don't follow the 6pm-6pm marker - except of course for Sabbath.

Something is therefore definitely amiss if God expects this of us. So instead of looking in the Torah, we need to find what the NT teaching for us is. There we find the things that have already been mentioned: Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and our rest is found in Him, not in the observance of a particular day of the week, but in every day.

I have already pointed out that in the Book of Hebrews we have important information relative to this Sabbath rest in the dispensation of the New Covenant.

According to the words here by the Holy Spirit these unbelieving Israelites, during their wandering in the wilderness, would never enter God's rest because of their rebellion and unbelief. This can't be speaking of the weekly Sabbath rest as demanded of the shadow as they entered into that faithfully every Sabbath day. This is the Holy Spirit speaking to us who are living in the dispensation of the New Covenant. This couldn't be speaking to those of previous ages because only at the cross of Christ did the law with all its regulations including the Sabbath reach its fulfillment.

Here we are encouraged into God's rest, which is as was the rest that Adam and Eve entered following creation; a spiritual rest every day. It is "that rest" which gives us peace with God in the knowledge that our redemption through Christ was completed at the cross. We are to encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sins deceitfulness.


Heb. 4:1-11 -- Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did [speaking of the Jews hearing the gospel from Jesus]; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. [They refused to accept Christ as the Messiah.]
Now we who have believed enter into that rest, just as God has said, "So I declared in my anger 'They shall never enter my rest.' "
Just as the Israelites who had been redeemed from slavery in Egypt, and their descendants, were entitled to the physical rest of the weekly Sabbath, so that spiritual rest (God's rest) is limited to all who believe on Christ and have had their sins cleansed by the blood of Christ on the cross. They have been redeemed from the world and set apart and enter into God's rest. This rest is peace with God in the assurance of eternal life through Christ.


Heb. 4 (Cont'd) -- And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh-day in these words: "And on the seventh-day God rested from all his work." And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest."
It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of unbelief.
This has to be those unbelieving Jews at the time of Christ because the gospel was first presented by Jesus at that time. They were keeping "the rest" of the Shadow on every Sabbath day, but they did not enter into God's rest as presented in the new covenant due to their unbelief. He is just as surely speaking of those at the present time who, blending good works, obedience to the law, Sabbath keeping, etc. to assist in assuring their salvation, fall into this same classification and cannot enter into this rest.

Heb. 4 (Cont'd) -- Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."
Therefore God again set a certain day. What day had he previously set? It could only be the Sabbath. Which day was the day referred to as "God again set a certain day"? This according to the text above, can only be Today. This was the perfect opportunity for God to specify if another day had been solemnized to become a different Sabbath day. This He didn't do because the original Sabbath was a shadow of Christ and when He replaced the Sabbath at the cross, that day had served its purpose and now all our attention is to be returned to Christ instead of to any particular day.

The day we choose to come together to worship Him on a regular basis is left to the church to decide, but their decision, even though agreeable to the Lord, does not make it into a holy day. All the holiness of that day was transferred to Christ and none of it to be shared by another day. The day He chose was Today and everyday as long as it is called today.

What you choose to do on Saturday or Sunday in worship of the Lord is therefore not based upon the day, but that the heart desires to worship the One who is worthy. Something we can do everyday as well and that is what pleases Him.

the temple was required for Sabbath observance as the Levites performed double duty on that day. This is how we can see that the Sabbath was part of the ceremonial law that has been done away with as well. A change in priesthood brought a change in law.

What Sabbath keepers want to do is turn a spiritual truth back into a carnal observance as if that picture can properly represent the spiritual rest we have in Christ now, yet still thru our flesh. And how do they prepare for it? By gathering double portions of "manna" and preparing it on the day before, observing all the law requires except for the sacrifices.

Manna ceased to exist when Israel entered into the promise land, because God provided abundantly. Manna was a picture of the Bread of Life to come. The Israelites who were delivered from Egypt refused to enter the land even after evidence was given them of God's bounty there, and they also despised the manna they were given. Yet Sabbath keepers want to follow their lead!

We are not to try and bring life back to what God has declared dead, nul and void. During the 1st century when the temple was still standing the Jewish method of reckoning time was also still practiced. But Roman time has replaced Jewish time in all the world and the temple is now gone too. Makes you wonder how dead something has to be before they are willing to admit that death has in fact come to what was then dying.

I see them trying to keep their rituals alive via a respirator - I suppose to prevent the stink which would definitely tell them that what is in fact without life, is dead. And this they do to perfect "holiness".

Christians are free to observe any day as the Lord's Day if they choose to gather together in like precious faith, but to insist that the 7th day only is the true day is then going to put upon those insisting that it be done then as the OT system required and I dare say then one sin compounds another.

[RND]

RND,

If there is a Sabbath we are obligated to observe, then the Torah is where it is established, and Saturday would be the day. But when you go there to find the rule, you will discover you cannot follow what is said, because no temple exists, nor any Levites to direct it. Not only that but we do not mark time by the Jewish method anymore. Even the Jews don't follow the 6pm-6pm marker - except of course for Sabbath.

Allyn, those are all wonderful things you brought up regarding the sabbath but is a Sanctuary, and Levites required to keep the sabbath holy? I seem to recall that there was no Sanctuary in Exodus 16 yet God asked the Israelites to observe His rest day. Note I didn't say "Levites" in that Moses and Aaron were both Levites. Lastly, you seem to have mistakenly associated the Sabbath with the Torah by assuming the two (sabbath and Torah) are somehow separate from each other, so I'm assuming you mean mishpatim, eidot or chukim.

The Torah is the entire contents of the first five books of the Bible, the Pentateuch. From there these "laws" are broken down and divided into sections such the Moral, Civil, Ceremonial and Health laws. The sabbath was originally spoken by God and written on sapphire stone by Him and His finger and is thus then a "spoken" reflection of His character and nature.

Remember the Ten Commandments were at first spoken by God.

Deu 9:10 And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them [was written] according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

As for not keeping the "Jewish method" anymore, Sabbath has always been marked from sundown to sundown, not 6pm to 6pm. And that is still how it is done to this day.

Something is therefore definitely amiss if God expects this of us. So instead of looking in the Torah, we need to find what the NT teaching for us is. There we find the things that have already been mentioned: Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and our rest is found in Him, not in the observance of a particular day of the week, but in every day.

Allyn, that sounds great, but is that reality? Would you make such a suggestion regarding the vast array of other teaching that is found in the Torah? For example, when tempted by Potiphar's wife Joseph stood firm. Should we abandon that lesson?

I have already pointed out that in the Book of Hebrews we have important information relative to this Sabbath rest in the dispensation of the New Covenant.

Hebrews 4:9 also reaffirms the sabbath keeping.

According to the words here by the Holy Spirit these unbelieving Israelites, during their wandering in the wilderness, would never enter God's rest because of their rebellion and unbelief. This can't be speaking of the weekly Sabbath rest as demanded of the shadow as they entered into that faithfully every Sabbath day. This is the Holy Spirit speaking to us who are living in the dispensation of the New Covenant. This couldn't be speaking to those of previous ages because only at the cross of Christ did the law with all its regulations including the Sabbath reach its fulfillment.

Allyn, with all due respect Hebrews 3 and 4 are comparing the Sabbath of the Lord and being able ti enter into that rest. Keep in mind that Paul was not writing to a converted body of "Christians" he was writing to a converted body of Jews that were still sabbath observant.

The rest we have in Christ comes only when we give up our selfish wills and yield ourselves to Christ. The Israelites didn't enter that rest because, even though they were part of the family of God, they were constantly bucking against God and His will for them. Yet that rest was available to them, just as much as it is available to us today. This "rest" comes when the life is submitted to God.

When God offered "rest" to the children of Israel, He offered His holy Sabbath with it. And if both were offered to Israel at the same time, then one can't be a shadow of the other. It is no different today, Christ is still offering His rest, as well as His Sabbath! One is not a shadow of the other.

Here we are encouraged into God's rest, which is as was the rest that Adam and Eve entered following creation; a spiritual rest every day. It is "that rest" which gives us peace with God in the knowledge that our redemption through Christ was completed at the cross. We are to encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sins deceitfulness.

It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of unbelief.

Right! Exactly! The "rest" (Sabbath) hasn't been eliminated! The Sabbath is an illustration of this rest. It is a time when we put aside our own pursuits, daily jobs, business, etc. and rest in Christ.

If the Christian community, on reading Hebrews three and four, insists on thinking of the Sabbath as bondage, something to get rid of, they would have lost the whole point of the discussion. The sabbath is a time to commune directly with God on the only day that has been blessed, and sanctified.

That rest comes from faith and obedience to God. Yet it also points forward to a time when faith becomes sight and the fullness of this rest will be realized when we reach that place where God will wipe away all tears from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away. Rev. 21:4

This has to be those unbelieving Jews at the time of Christ because the gospel was first presented by Jesus at that time. They were keeping "the rest" of the Shadow on every Sabbath day, but they did not enter into God's rest as presented in the new covenant due to their unbelief.

Right, they had a "do as I say, not as I do" mind set. They were so enamored with themselves and their piousness that they were willing to kill and stone on the sabbath. Their hearts weren't into it. Allyn, does that mean there was a problem with the sabbath commandment or the people observing it?

He is just as surely speaking of those at the present time who, blending good works, obedience to the law, Sabbath keeping, etc. to assist in assuring their salvation, fall into this same classification and cannot enter into this rest.

You mentioned the sabbath as a "shadow." If this is true that the 4th commandment pointed to something, then what did the 7th commandment point to? The Sabbath is not a shadow like the sacrificial system was a shadow. The Sabbath is a memorial of creation, it is an experience of resting in Christ, and it is a foretaste of spending eternity in close fellowship with our Lord and Savior. The seventh day Sabbath is not "works" it is the very essence of "rest". A putting aside of our own business and pleasure, putting aside the things pertaining to self and delighting ourselves in the Lord.

Therefore God again set a certain day. What day had he previously set? It could only be the Sabbath. Which day was the day referred to as "God again set a certain day"? This according to the text above, can only be Today.

That's certainly a possibility. But the reality is that the day set aside is still a "sabbatimos" which literally means a "Keeping of the sabbath."

This was the perfect opportunity for God to specify if another day had been solemnized to become a different Sabbath day. This He didn't do because the original Sabbath was a shadow of Christ and when He replaced the Sabbath at the cross, that day had served its purpose and now all our attention is to be returned to Christ instead of to any particular day.

Right. God reaffirmed the sabbath. He didn't get rid of it! There remains a "sabbath rest." If you look at most any translation from NKJV to Young's that's exactly what is translated.

The day we choose to come together to worship Him on a regular basis is left to the church to decide, but their decision, even though agreeable to the Lord, does not make it into a holy day. All the holiness of that day was transferred to Christ and none of it to be shared by another day. The day He chose was Today and everyday as long as it is called today.

Ah, now we get to the heart of the matter! So when the Catholic church insists that they in fact changed the solemnity of Sabbath to Sunday they you are in complete agreement with that decision? If it is for the church to decide and not you through the Holy Spirit then that is deferring to the one's that claimed they changed the sabbath!

Some Catholic Catechisms will even give one the impression that Sunday is the sabbath. The following quotation is from the Catholic Baltimore Catechism #1, popular in the United States for the last century or so, intended for the instruction of children. It blurs the distinction between the Sabbath and Sunday:

Q. What is the third Commandment?
A. The third Commandment is: Remember thou keep holy the Sabbath day.

Q. How are we to worship God on Sundays and holydays of obligation?
A. We are to worship God on Sundays and holydays of obligation by hearing Mass, by prayer, and by other good works.

Yet obviously the Catholic church and Rome take credit for changing sabbath observance from sabbath to sunday:

Baltimore Catechism #2
10. Q. What are we commanded by the third Commandment?
A. By the third Commandment we are commanded to keep holy the Lord's day and the holy days of obligation, on which we are to give our time to the service and worship of God.

11. Q. How are we to worship God on Sundays and holydays of obligation?
A. We are to worship God on Sundays and holydays of obligation by hearing Mass, by prayer, and by other good works.

12. Q. Are the Sabbath day and the Sunday the same?
A. The Sabbath day and the Sunday are not the same. The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week, and is the day which was kept holy in the old law; the Sunday is the first day of the week, and is the day which is kept holy in the new law.

13. Q. Why does the Church command us to keep the Sunday holy instead of the Sabbath?
A. The Church commands us to keep the Sunday holy instead of the Sabbath because on Sunday Christ rose from the dead, and on Sunday He sent the Holy Ghost upon the Apostles.

14. Q. What is forbidden by the third Commandment?
A. The third Commandment forbids all unnecessary servile work and whatever else may hinder the due observance of the Lord's day.

If God himself declared the seventh day to be sanctified and holy for ever, then where in his Word, the Bible, does He rescind the keeping of the seventh day? Better yet, where in the Bible is the first day of the week declared to be a holy day to be observed in perpetuity, as a replacement for the sabbath? So just who made this change to Sunday?

"Concerning the Authority of the Church. — The Scripture teaches: Remember that you keep the Saturday; six days shalt thou labor and do all thy work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God, etc. However, the church has transferred the observance from Saturday to Sunday by virtue of her own power, without Scripture, without doubt under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."

"Concerning Holidays and Fast-Days. — The Sabbath is commanded in various places in the Scriptures. But there is no mention of the cessation of the Sabbath and the institution of Sunday in the Gospels, or in Paul's writings, or in all the Bible; therefore this has taken place by the apostolic church instituting it without Scripture."

"If, however, the church has had power to change the Sabbath of the Bible into Sunday and to command Sunday- keeping, why should it not have also this power concerning other days, many of which are based on the Scriptures — such as Christmas, circumcision of the heart, three kings, etc. If you omit the latter, and turn from the church to the Scriptures alone, then you must keep the Sabbath with the Jews, which has been kept from the beginning of the world." - Dr. Eck's Enchiridion, 1533, pp. 78, 79

Allyn, this is Canon (Law) number 29 from the Council of Laodicea in 364AD which was the official body of the church in that day. Do you agree with it?

"CHRISTIANS must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ."

What you choose to do on Saturday or Sunday in worship of the Lord is therefore not based upon the day, but that the heart desires to worship the One who is worthy. Something we can do everyday as well and that is what pleases Him.

But didn't Jesus say He was the Lord of the Sabbath and that the sabbath was made for man? Wasn't it Jesus that kept the sabbath? Shouldn't we walk even as He walked?

the temple was required for Sabbath observance as the Levites performed double duty on that day. This is how we can see that the Sabbath was part of the ceremonial law that has been done away with as well. A change in priesthood brought a change in law.

There was no Sanctuary required for the sabbath. See Exodus 16.

As for a "change in the Priesthood you made mention of what exactly changed? The ritual sacrifice of animals or the laws themselves? Aren't we required to offer "spiritual sacrifices" to Jesus in the Heavenly Sanctuary?

What Sabbath keepers want to do is turn a spiritual truth back into a carnal observance as if that picture can properly represent the spiritual rest we have in Christ now, yet still thru our flesh. And how do they prepare for it? By gathering double portions of "manna" and preparing it on the day before, observing all the law requires except for the sacrifices.

Allyn, the only way the law can be followed is spiritually. The carnal mind is at enmity with God and His law.

Manna ceased to exist when Israel entered into the promise land, because God provided abundantly. Manna was a picture of the Bread of Life to come.

And that was before the law came, not after!

The Israelites who were delivered from Egypt refused to enter the land even after evidence was given them of God's bounty there, and they also despised the manna they were given. Yet Sabbath keepers want to follow their lead!

Why did the refuse to enter into that land? They had no faith!

We are not to try and bring life back to what God has declared dead, nul and void. During the 1st century when the temple was still standing the Jewish method of reckoning time was also still practiced. But Roman time has replaced Jewish time in all the world and the temple is now gone too. Makes you wonder how dead something has to be before they are willing to admit that death has in fact come to what was then dying.

Brother, the way of marking days hasn't changed! Days still begin and end from sundown to sunset! The way the time is observed has changed!

I see them trying to keep their rituals alive via a respirator - I suppose to prevent the stink which would definitely tell them that what is in fact without life, is dead. And this they do to perfect "holiness".

The dead are always associated with being "law breakers" Allyn!

Psa 119:53 Horror hath taken hold upon me because of the wicked that forsake thy law.

Pro 28:4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them.

Hab 1:4 Therefore the law is slacked, and judgment doth never go forth: for the wicked doth compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedeth.

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Hbr 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Christians are free to observe any day as the Lord's Day if they choose to gather together in like precious faith, but to insist that the 7th day only is the true day is then going to put upon those insisting that it be done then as the OT system required and I dare say then one sin compounds another.

Frankly Allyn that's just a hyperbole. There is no evidence that the NT eliminated the teachings of the Torah. In fact when Paul speaks to Timothy he states rather clearly that "All Scripture is God‑breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Since the New Testament wasn't even compiled at this point in history it can only be obvious Allyn that Paul was speaking of the Torah and the Tanakh when he stated, "All scripture...."

Thanks for the feedback Allyn but I would ask you to consider that if Jesus, who wrote the Ten Commandments, is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow then how that the seventh-day sabbath changed?

[Allyn]

I am going to simply say this. If my focus is on Christ then all the other things are taken care of. I am not commanded to observe anything except Christ. So in my opinion there is no end round solution. No back door entry. Either we sniff the end of the finger of God who is point at His Son or we look to the Son to whom He is pointing.

[RND]

I am going to simply say this. If my focus is on Christ then all the other things are taken care of.

I agree! When we do the will of God through Jesus then His commandments are not grievous nor a burden.

I am not commanded to observe anything except Christ.

Well, He did say that He was the Lord of the sabbath and that the sabbath is part of the perpetual covenant. So when Christ writes with His finger to, "Remember the sabbath...." wit seems odd to me to forget it.

So in my opinion there is no end round solution. No back door entry. Either we sniff the end of the finger of God who is point at His Son or we look to the Son to whom He is pointing.

And I'm of a mind that we can do both. I think that's what the Sermon on the Mount was all about. Eye for and eye has been turn into turn the other cheek. Love your neighbor and hate your enemy has been changed to love your enemy. Adultery has been changed from the act to the thought. Was Jesus a "legalist?"

Allyn, why is it that we never call someone that has no desire to commit adultery a legalist but some call those that desire to recognize and honor the seventh-day sabbath legalist?

[Allyn]

RND says:

Allyn, why is it that we never call someone that has no desire to commit adultery a legalist but some call those that desire to recognize and honor the seventh-day sabbath legalist?

First, I have not once used that comparrison. Second, one is written on our heart and the other is sought in futility to observe because no one can do it and do it perfectly.