Roman Catholic and The Bible.

[popeman]

Dear Everyone (because too many posts with too many points of discussion),

It appears that everyone “thinks” they have answered this MATT 18 point of a Church authority, but I really have not seen an answer to that….maybe I am missing it. Michelle got the closest by saying “….I am part of Christ's Church with a mandate to uphold all scripture, including Matthew 18”.

It appears that Michelle still missed the point of Matt 18 (vis-à-vis ACTS 15) where she says as a Christian “she has a mandate” to uphold all scripture. I am sorry but that is not what MATT18 says. Those series of verses state that your Christian Church not you, Michelle) can make/mandate/decree a fellow Christian to be that of a pagan/tax collector….no longer in the body of this Christian church (ie, excommunicated via NIV Bible scholars).

1. So, Michelle, you agree that you belong to a Church that has the authority to turn a fellow Christian into a pagan, right? It is a simple yes or no question.

2. Allyn. Please don’t even talk about the RCC and its definition of Church, assembly…etc because I have been specifically asking Steve what Church “he” belonged to. Steve went into this discussion of what his Christian Church is which sounded very ethereal but I can live with it because it is “Steve’s” conception of the CHURCH. We know that MATT 18 applies directly to this church, so therefore we know that MATT 18 is specific and directly speaking of Steve’s Church (if you are a member of the same Church, as Steve, then this applies to you, as well). This is really easy, three Christians in Steve’s church have a sin problem. One of the three sinned against the other (the contention). MATT18 is exercised from Step one to Step two and still no resolution to the sin problem. Therefore, when Step three is exercised and the sinner still does not see his wrong then Steve’s "Church" has the mandated right to turn this Christian away as a pagan. Steve, Mike, Michelle and Homer agree with that because they all belong to the same Church.

I am thrilled because now I see that they have a Church authority as strong as the Catholic Christian church believes in. I also know by reason of deduction that when Steve’s Church makes this kind of pagan judgement on a sinner it is done with infallibility because their Church would not want to condemn (excommunicate) a former Christian as a pagan without knowing they were 100% correct (ie, infallibility in faith/morals).

3. Steve. Where did you go to school for English? MATT18 is very, very straight-forward…so straight-forward that you can not mistake that Step Three allows your church AUTHORITY to turn a former Christian into a pagan. Bottom line you can make your own English book but this scripture is very, very clear.

4. Tom. You attend Steve’s Bible Study? How can you go there if you are treated as a one-trick pony? He said that about me, but I see an edge to Steve that appears to be less than charitable which could easily include you. Saddle-up, boy…you have my vote for stickin’ with it!

5. Christopher. What is this CREEDS (vol1) you refer to? Is this a Catholic Christian volume or a Protestant commentary? If it is Protestant, have you crossed-referenced it by reading the catechism?

PAX Popeman

[Michelle]

Hi popeman,

You asked:

1. So, Michelle, you agree that you belong to a Church that has the authority to turn a fellow Christian into a pagan, right? [emphasis mine] It is a simple yes or no question.

No.

Blessings,
Michelle

[tom]

Hi Tom,

We missed you Saturday night, in Salinas! See you next time?

You wrote:

Can you imagine if every U.S. citizen were to read and interpret the U.S. Constitution for themselves?

This would not be a problem, if every citizen had the Constitution's author living in his or her head. As I have said before, you and popeman do not understand what we are saying because we are taking for granted the biblical teaching about the role of the Holy Spirit in the believers.

This is where popeman and I get lost. If the Holy Spirit is in the head of all true Christians then the Holy Spirit must be schizophrenic. How come you and Martin Luther don't agree on many of the doctrines of Christianity? We are all lead by the same Holy Spirit right?


Tom

[Homer]

Hi Popeman,

You wrote:

I am thrilled because now I see that they have a Church authority as strong as the Catholic Christian church believes in. I also know by reason of deduction that when Steve’s Church makes this kind of pagan judgement on a sinner it is done with infallibility because their Church would not want to condemn (excommunicate) a former Christian as a pagan without knowing they were 100% correct (ie, infallibility in faith/morals).

Considering the text:

Matthew 18:15-20 (New King James Version)

15. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17. And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
18. “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19. “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20. For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

I type slowly, perhaps that will help you catch what I write. Notice the text. No need for a church hierarchy to tell you what it says; trust me, this isn't rocket science. As you have noted, it is straight forward. Notice that he instructs us to go to the church. The word "church" is not a translation from the original. If it was translated literally, we would likely read assembly or congregation. Then go to vs 19 & 20. Here you will see this gathering to decide the matter can be as small as two or three! If this small body follows all three steps, God will honor their decision! This is not a decision that the man is condemned to hell. That is God's prerogative alone.

The purpose is restoration of the man. He is not a pagan or a tax collector, he is to be treated like he is, i.e. shunned. That's it! As in the story in 1 Corinthians 5, the purpose is to save the man - to bring him to his senses. Any group of Christians who gather together can carry this out regarding one who is a part of their congregation. No need for a Pope at all. Jesus is teaching about relationships, fellowship, and forgiveness in the passage. Why insist on erecting some huge institution to take care of it?

And regarding:

would not want to condemn (excommunicate) a former Christian as a pagan without knowing they were 100% correct (ie, infallibility in faith/morals

Please explain how a dispute between two people would be resolved at the tiny Roman Catholic church here in our small town. Does it go all the way up the hierarchy of your Church to someone, or some group who is infallible? If so, they must be very busy. Or does this infallibility of yours extend down to the local level?

Perhaps you are pressed for time and in a hurry. I've noticed you apparently have a bit of a problem reading some of the posts. You wrote:

Tom. You attend Steve’s Bible Study? How can you go there if you are treated as a one-trick pony? He said that about me, but I see an edge to Steve that appears to be less than charitable which could easily include you. Saddle-up, boy…you have my vote for stickin’ with it!

If you go back and read Steve's comment regarding the "one-trick pony", I think you will see it was in reference to RND and his repetitive subject of the Sabbath.

God bless, Homer

[steve]

Popeman,

You wrote:

It appears that Michelle still missed the point of Matt 18 (vis-à-vis ACTS 15)

I am afraid you are the one missing the point, because Matthew 18 and Acts 15 have nothing to do with each other.

Matthew 18 is about resolving relationship problems between brothers which have been caused by one sinning against the other, and restoring their relationships; Acts 15 was about making official declarations about Christian doctrine.

Matthew 18 talks about settling the relational difficulties within a congregation; Acts 15 deals with a decision by the gathered apostles affecting the very contents of the Gospel that shall be preached worldwide.

Matthew 18 results in church discipline of an unrepentant sinner; no sinners were identified, accused or excommunicated in Acts 15.

Since they have nothing in common, in terms of subject matter, can you tell me why I should accept this common Roman Catholic association of the two passages?

And while you are at it, could we prevail upon you to answer Homer's earlier questions (or any questions that you have been asked, for that matter?)?

[steve]

Hi Tom,

You wrote:

If the Holy Spirit is in the head of all true Christians then the Holy Spirit must be schizophrenic. How come you and Martin Luther don't agree on many of the doctrines of Christianity? We are all lead by the same Holy Spirit right?

Is it your intention to cast doubt on what Jesus and the apostles promised about the Holy Spirit's teaching the believers? I am interested in knowing what you believe the passages I have quoted about this actually mean (e.g. Matt.23:8/ John 16:13/ Eph.1:17-18/ 1 John 2:27).

In answer to your question: not all students under the same teacher learn the same amount or at the same speed. There is one teacher of all Christians, but not all Christians are equally teachable or conscientious in their studies.

[darinhouston]

Hi Tom,

You wrote:

If the Holy Spirit is in the head of all true Christians then the Holy Spirit must be schizophrenic. How come you and Martin Luther don't agree on many of the doctrines of Christianity? We are all lead by the same Holy Spirit right?

Is it your intention to cast doubt on what Jesus and the apostles promised about the Holy Spirit's teaching the believers? I am interested in knowing what you believe the passages I have quoted about this actually mean (e.g. Matt.23:8/ John 16:13/ Eph.1:17-18/ 1 John 2:27).

In answer to your question: not all students under the same teacher learn the same amount or at the same speed. There is one teacher of all Christians, but not all Christians are equally teachable or conscientious in their studies.

I would add that if anything it is not the Holy Spirit that is schizophrenic, but our own will which Paul suggests is in tension between a life led by the Spirit and a life led by our flesh. If we could learn to hear and follow the voice of the Holy Spirit perfectly as Jesus Himself did, we would have unity -- the problem is, our vessel is still broken. A song I enjoy suggests we have a cup that has a crack and we must return to the waterfall to keep it full. This is not a deficiency in the Holy Spirit, but a deficiency in us. If we can learn to stand in the waterfall, the crack will not be a problem, but everyone I know seems to step away from it far more than is advisable.

On another matter, popeman sees Steve's (and the others') views of the church as "ethereal." I don't equate "spiritual" with "ethereal." It's not "out there" somewhere -- it's right here among us. Perhaps (as Steve has pointed out) this different understanding of what "spiritual" means to us explains some of the differences in viewing these scriptures.

[popeman]

Dear everyone,

Fascinating…so many new opinions and I thought we were dealing with one church…. the Christian church that Steve belongs to.

1. Michelle. Well, at least you are honest enough to say that your church does not have the scriptural authority of MATT18. Even though scripture teaches us aspects of faith, you have the right/opinion to believe only what you wish. It is indicative of the general Christian/Protestant steam of thought…they say they believe in Sola Scriptura, but unfortunately it is more like Sola Christian (Michelle, Homer, Steve, mike…etc).

2. Steve. Wowweeee, when are two Christians on this site going to agree on something? I brought up ACTS15 moons ago that this scenario was about an argument of “official declarations about Christian doctrine”, but one person kept stating [paraphrase] “no, no…it has only has to do with salvation”. I agree with you Steve, ACTS15 has everything to do with doctrine and the need for official declarations, ie, the argument and the need for a church council to make a mandated judgement for the whole Church at Antioch to follow…no if’s, and’s or but’s!

Now, you say it had nothing to do with sin?! Are you scripturally crazy? If you purposely promote a Christian doctrine that takes you away from God, you are sinning. To sin is to “miss the mark, the target” (Old English SYNN, often used when an arrow missed its mark/target).

At the Antioch Church there were many Christians at many levels of faith…newbies and those older in the faith. God refers to the newbies to the faith “as a child” (MATT 18 again). That being said, if you (Antioch) make a believer to sin then you are treated very harshly by God. He casts you into the sea, but the earthly church can treat you as a pagan or a tax collector.

MATT 18:3-7. And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5. "And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6. But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7. Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!

ACTS15 deals with church members promoting non-Christian doctrine (some who are nervous about getting a circumcision may turn away from Jesus and go away not getting the opportunity to hear the saving Grace of Christ). If this non-Christian doctrine takes a newbie believer away from the teachings of Christ than the person who promotes it is “sinning”. Some quasi-Christian churches have changed scripture to state/infer many Gods. This leads many quasi-Christians further away from the teachings of Christ to the point they actually believe it and evangelize these very poor “sinful” teachings. The originator of this theory of “many Gods” was sinning by causing many new-be Christians away from Christ. As scripture states, he would be better off cast into the sea with a stone.

If ACTS15 was teaching doctrine that pulled newbie Christians away from the teachings of Christ then they would be treated the same. Thankfully, they listened to a mandated authoritative church and “rejoiced” at their wrong doings/teachings (ie, MATT 18). MATT18 talks/speaks of sin (not relationships, even though sin will affect a relationship). ACTS15 has EVERYTHING to do with sin…missing the mark, the target of Jesus Christ.

3. Homer. I guess you are stuck on the word “LIKE”, just like Clinton was playing the lawyer game with the word “IS”. Below are just a few examples of scripture using the word “LIKE” and you will see that there is always a very close relationship to the fact when scripture relates something “LIKE” something else then it means that they ARE that something. “LIKE” a pagan or a tax collector MEANS you encompass everything about that pagan/tax collector whether you were born that way or trained professionally. Pagans and tax collectors are used Scripturally allegorically as NON-CHRISTAINS.

So please do not go into this word minutia about “LIKE”. The church in MATT18 treats the offending person “LIKE” a pagan because they ARE pagans by now being non-Christians. A non-Christian does not believe in the saving Grace of Jesus Christ, unless you have another Clinton-ion definition of a non-Christian.

You have a terrible dilemma about a church (whether it is an assembly or whatever you and Steve wish to apply a definition to) but these churches have the power, the authority, the mandate over other Christians within their CHURCH. Steve described his defeinition of “Church” to which many on this site agreed to…so, you are all of his church of Christians. A mis-deeding member can be cast out as a pagan if they do not listen to the church…plain and simple.

Michelle has now simply denied MATT18/ACTS15 in that a CHURCH can not have this authority over another Christian even though it says it right in front of her. Then scriptural lawyers like (Oops, I used LIKE) you go into a word minutia in an attempt dismiss the power of the verse. If your “LIKE” contention is so correct can you find an early Christian’s writings in the 1st century who wrote about a non-authoritative Church?

•Matthew 6:5 NIV
[Prayer] [6:9-13pp -- Lk 11:2-4] "And when you pray, do not be LIKE the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.
•Matthew 6:7 NIV
And when you pray, do not keep on babbling LIKE pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
•Matthew 6:8 NIV
Do not be LIKE them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
•Matthew 6:29 NIV
Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed LIKE one of these.
•Matthew 7:24 NIV
[The Wise and Foolish Builders] [7:24-27pp -- Lk 6:47-49] "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is LIKE a wise man who built his house on the rock.

4. Tom. Are there any other Catholic Christians with you when you go to Steve’s bible studies or do you wear body armor? Semper Fi. Popeman

[darinhouston]

1. So, Michelle, you agree that you belong to a Church that has the authority to turn a fellow Christian into a pagan, right? [emphasis mine] It is a simple yes or no question.

I don't think you fairly construed Michelle's response -- if we must "parse" the response, I suspect it was that she didn't agree that we have the authority to "turn" a Christian "into" a pagan, but instead that we treat them as if they were one. You clearly disagree that this is what Scripture teaches us to do, but you have misconstrued her "simple yes or no" answer. That is the danger of requiring a yes or no response to a compound statement. It's fine to do this, but then you would be expected to ask follow up questions to narrow the discussion lest you err and assume more from the response than was intended. Since you seem to disregard any responses beyond simple yes or no answers, I think she was simply trying to progress the discussion and deal with your request as you narrowly required.

[steve]

Popeman,

If the last post is your idea of answering Homer's question (which you have been asked many times to answer), then I guess we are to assume that his question is unanswerable. Apparently, you have no way of bringing discipline in your church. If you have, then tell us about it. We are listening. If, in fact, you have no idea how one would bring another to discipline in your church, then you are worse off than I am, because I know what to do in such cases.

Your suggestion that the non-Catholic Christians here are presenting multiple opinions (exhibiting disunity, as you would imply) is amazing! I have not seen any disagreement among non-Catholics on this thread. We do disagree on numerous issues, which is our idea of healthy freedom of thought, but the fact that you think you have seen different opinions on this thread makes me wonder if you are understanding anything that anyone has said.

I did not agree with you that the Jerusalem Council set a precedent for the sitting of similar tribunals to settle "doctrines." The only "doctrine" that was being decided there was what the Gospel is and what it is not. That was decided there, and will never need to be decided again.

As for the connection between Matthew 18 and Acts 15, all you can say is that Matthew 18 warns about stumbling "newbies", and there were lots of "newbies" in Antioch? Nice try. Please answer one simple question:

If Acts 15 was an example of Matthew 18 in action, then who was brought up for discipline and "turned into a pagan" in Acts 15?

Popeman, you are not conversing like an honest participant here. You do not answer questions that are put to you, and you do not make a serious effort to understand the answers that people give when you ask them questions (or else you forget immediately, and respond as if you have not read them). This is not acceptable behavior at this forum. You have been told what the standards are here, and you apparently wish to flout them, or else you have no capacity to understand them. In either case, you do not belong in the discussion. Roman Catholics are welcome here by the hundreds, but they have to be as honest as everyone else. I am giving you one more chance to prove that you wish to participate here. If your next post does not answer two questions, it will be your last post here:

1) Please answer directly Homer's questions about how the discipline is conducted in the Catholic Church when one brother sins against another;

2) Please answer the one question I asked in this post.

I am requesting not only honestly, but maturity. Nobody needs to hear your desperate and senseless thrashing about, your gratuitous pretense at not understanding the positions of your correspondents, or your childish insults. If you are an honest man, you should easily be able to give honest answers to the two questions. If you are not an honest man, you are finished here.