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Re: Punishment and the fear of God
Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:17 am
by steve7150
Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.”
Certainly sounds similar to the verse regarding some getting few stripes and some getting many. Sodom generally considered the most wicked city , if a poll were taken of bible believers and yet it gets a more tolerable judgment.
I wonder what the purposes of God's different kinds of judgment are? Is it retribution , is it restoration or for the sake of justice or perhaps a combination.
Re: Punishment and the fear of God
Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:30 am
by backwoodsman
TheEditor wrote:"But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you." Mat 11:24
More tolerable for Sodom. How?
I think this verse works fine for any of the 3 views. But I notice he says "
on the day of judgment" rather than "
after the day of judgment"; I wonder if there's any significance to that? It seems to fit better with conditionalism or universalism than with traditionalism. If He meant to communicate something about eternal torment, it seems a more natural way of speaking would be to reference the punishment rather than the day of judgment.
Re: Punishment and the fear of God
Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:50 pm
by TheEditor
Greetings,
That is why I asked the question. The statement by Jesus seems to encourage speculation. My own thoughts (for what they are worth) is that ignorance is to some extent an excuse. At least, God appears willing to make allowances for this. As I am prone to quip, God is not a great cosmic Groucho Marx that says 'Close, but no cigar'.
Regards, Brenden.
Re: Punishment and the fear of God
Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:49 am
by steve7150
As I am prone to quip, God is not a great cosmic Groucho Marx that says 'Close, but no cigar'.
Wow , you mean that in addition to all spiritual blessings i get a cigar on judgment day? Awesome!
Re: Punishment and the fear of God
Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:30 pm
by jriccitelli
And a pony too.
(Brenden, are you considering the 'greater' punishment promised for some, and the 'lesser' punishment for others in your question?
A Judgment usually delivers lesser and greater sentences depending on the offense)
Re: Punishment and the fear of God
Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:32 pm
by steve7150
I think this verse works fine for any of the 3 views. But I notice he says "on the day of judgment" rather than "after the day of judgment"; I wonder if there's any significance to that? It seems to fit better with conditionalism or universalism than with traditionalism
Maybe the day of judgment is not 24 hours but a period of time, like a thousand years or so? Good thought!
Re: Punishment and the fear of God
Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:48 pm
by steve7150
A Judgment usually delivers lesser and greater sentences depending on the offense)
Yes JR you are right, but do you think God can accomplish anything besides punishment? Remember the poor teen age girl in Africa who helped her neighbors kids because they were needy. Sadly at the age of 15 years she was hit by a stray bullet and died, and sadly she had never heard of Jesus. When she meets Jesus on judgment day, what will her fate be? Is there only punishment or annihilation in store for her or is there anything else God will do, considering the fact His will is that none should perish. Do you think God's will carries any weight? Also what about God's mercy, does that matter?
Re: Punishment and the fear of God
Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:01 pm
by Paidion
JR wrote:(Brenden, are you considering the 'greater' punishment promised for some, and the 'lesser' punishment for others in your question?
A Judgment usually delivers lesser and greater sentences depending on the offense)
How can one eternal punishment be any greater or lesser than another? They are both eternal? Or are you talking about some temporary punishment before annihilation?
Re: Punishment and the fear of God
Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:18 pm
by TheEditor
Yes JR I am.
You see, my way of looking at it is that with all judgment there appears to be a variety of punishment. More stripes, fewer stripes, etc. The same appears to be the case in rewards, "Star differs from star in glory" etc. The, Close but no cigar approach of endless conscious torture seems incompatable with the nature of God as I see him revealed in Scripture and through his Son. Abraham seemed to think the same.
Regards, Brenden.
Re: Punishment and the fear of God
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:29 am
by jriccitelli
I do too Brenden, as I stated here under the 'The Logical Fallacy of Christian Universalism' page 13, Mon mar 10;
As I ‘have’ said, I believe the Bible speaks of deserving, fair, and just punishment, meaning that sins will be punished each according to their degrees. Post mortem predominantly, albeit it will be Gods decision. There are worse sins, and lesser sins, and more sins, and some sinned even more. The sinner will suffer and be punished for his own sins, each accordingly. This is the suffering, agony, and wrath spoken of, described and warned of ‘throughout’ scripture and eventually and finally the unrepentant and wicked will be thrown in the LOF, which is the second death, from this there is no indication anyone returns and they are dead, forever. This I do not believe is eternal torment, but the second death is the eternal annihilation ('after' their punishment, and the final punishment being the second death.