Our election is not founded on God’s foreseeing our future faith.
Ephes. 1:4 (ESV)
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
We are simply chosen by God in love. It is not for anything in us. Not for a faith that God could fore see in us in the future. He simply choose us before the foundation of the world. There are no conditions in His choosing us to believe. We believe because He choose us to believe.
Our election is not founded on God’s foreseeing our future f
Our election is not founded on God’s foreseeing our future f
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Romans 8:29 (ESV)
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Where in this passage does it state that election is not on God's foreseeing of faith? You should be very careful to exegete text and not add meaning to it.
You should have quoted further:
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Everyone who believes is predestined to to be adopted as sons in Christ.
Where does it say that we believe because He chose us to believe. Everywhere I read that we are saved by faith. Faith is believing.
1Peter 1: 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Foreknowledge means to know beforehand. If it meant predestined. They, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit would have used that word.
Everytime you wonder what passages like this mean, refer to the most explicit that I am aware of:
Romans 4:
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness
Who's faith? Abraham's. Not God's faith imputed to Abraham but it is God's jusification that is imputed to Abraham because of something you would say "It is not for anything in us." Well, it was something in Abraham "his faith is accounted for righteousness".
And what explanation do we get for this belief?
Romans 4:18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, "So shall your descendants be." 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah's womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness."
Abraham's unwavering belief in God is the reason that "it was accounted to him for righteousness."
Don't take my word for it. Read Romans 4 carefully and tell me how he is the father of all who believe by God making him that way, without reguard for anything "in" Abraham (namely, his belief).
You should have quoted further:
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Everyone who believes is predestined to to be adopted as sons in Christ.
Where does it say that we believe because He chose us to believe. Everywhere I read that we are saved by faith. Faith is believing.
1Peter 1: 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Foreknowledge means to know beforehand. If it meant predestined. They, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit would have used that word.
Everytime you wonder what passages like this mean, refer to the most explicit that I am aware of:
Romans 4:
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness
Who's faith? Abraham's. Not God's faith imputed to Abraham but it is God's jusification that is imputed to Abraham because of something you would say "It is not for anything in us." Well, it was something in Abraham "his faith is accounted for righteousness".
And what explanation do we get for this belief?
Romans 4:18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, "So shall your descendants be." 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah's womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness."
Abraham's unwavering belief in God is the reason that "it was accounted to him for righteousness."
Don't take my word for it. Read Romans 4 carefully and tell me how he is the father of all who believe by God making him that way, without reguard for anything "in" Abraham (namely, his belief).
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
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_Anonymous
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Doesn't this then mean that the reprobate or those unconditionally elected to hell isn't based on forseen sin or rebellion or negative response to the Gospel and initiation of the Holy Spirit? This means (if so) that those end up in hell were punished and chosen for eternal damnation before time irrespectively of the sin.
???
???
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
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_Anonymous
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The Westminister Confession is right on, your understanding of it is flawed.
"If the elect for heaven wasn't according to foreknowledge, or forseen faith, then the elect for hell can't be according to foreknowledge or forseen sin."
The elect for heaven is according to foreknowledge, the Bible is clear on this; Romans 8:29. God foreknows because He has predestined. The elect for heaven is according to forseen faith, but God is the one who gives faith to the elect. Again, God foreknows because He has predestined. So ultimately His sovereign election is "according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will " - Ephesians1:11.
"That means they are elect for hell irrespective of sin."
Irrespective of sin? This is most certainly not the Calvinist position and does in no way reflect the Westminister Confession. They are elect for hell because they are sinners, and for no other reason.
It very clearly states that God has "'mercy on whom He has mercy, and He will have compassion on whom He will have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who has mercy" v.15. and "He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills" v.18.
Anyways, predestination is not just found in Romans 9 only, it is found all through out the entire Bible.
TC
"If the elect for heaven wasn't according to foreknowledge, or forseen faith, then the elect for hell can't be according to foreknowledge or forseen sin."
The elect for heaven is according to foreknowledge, the Bible is clear on this; Romans 8:29. God foreknows because He has predestined. The elect for heaven is according to forseen faith, but God is the one who gives faith to the elect. Again, God foreknows because He has predestined. So ultimately His sovereign election is "according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will " - Ephesians1:11.
"That means they are elect for hell irrespective of sin."
Irrespective of sin? This is most certainly not the Calvinist position and does in no way reflect the Westminister Confession. They are elect for hell because they are sinners, and for no other reason.
It very clearly states that God has "'mercy on whom He has mercy, and He will have compassion on whom He will have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who has mercy" v.15. and "He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills" v.18.
Anyways, predestination is not just found in Romans 9 only, it is found all through out the entire Bible.
TC
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
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_STEVE7150
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Taking a few verses out of scripture and assumming this is an all encompasing doctrine is not wise IMHO. There are probably at least ten times as many verses clearly encouraging us to make righteous choices which please God rather then worldly choices which lead to death. The weight of scriptural evidence is what matters not a few isolated verses which IMO don't even refer to individual elected to salvation but a general type of statement of whosoever abides in Christ in effect is elect by their affirmation.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Might be good to read what Paul said again: Romans 8:29 "For those God foreknew He also predestined.....". It doesn't seem to say that He foreknew because He predestined. Perhaps thats in 3rd Peter somewhere. 
If Romans is read as being about peoples corporately (Jews, Gentiles) it seems much easier to comprehend. For example if Jacob and Esau are understood to represent Israel and Gentiles, then Romans 9:12-13 is true. If understood of the individuals, then please tell when Esau ever served Jacob.
Regarding the Potter in Romans 9 please see the parable of the potter, Jeremiah 18, regarding the national people Israel, and I think you will have a clearer understanding of what Paul had in mind.
Jeremiah 18: 6b-8:
"Like clay in the hand of the potter, so you are in my hand, O house of Israel. If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned." (NIV) (sorry, the xlation near my computer was an NIV).
Are we to understand that God"s grace was somehow greater under the old covenant than the new?
If Romans is read as being about peoples corporately (Jews, Gentiles) it seems much easier to comprehend. For example if Jacob and Esau are understood to represent Israel and Gentiles, then Romans 9:12-13 is true. If understood of the individuals, then please tell when Esau ever served Jacob.
Regarding the Potter in Romans 9 please see the parable of the potter, Jeremiah 18, regarding the national people Israel, and I think you will have a clearer understanding of what Paul had in mind.
Jeremiah 18: 6b-8:
"Like clay in the hand of the potter, so you are in my hand, O house of Israel. If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned." (NIV) (sorry, the xlation near my computer was an NIV).
Are we to understand that God"s grace was somehow greater under the old covenant than the new?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A Berean
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_Anonymous
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Someone wrote this to me, any thoughts?
Predestine
1. To fix upon, decide, or decree in advance; foreordain.
2. Theology. To foreordain or elect by divine will or decree.
You can have foreknowledge based on predestination, but you cannot have predestination based on foreknowledge; the two are not compatible in this order. Either God was the cause or He wasn't. Predestination by defenition says God is the cause; that he decided beforehand, or foreordained. Predestination is Active, Foreknowledge is Passive. You cannot Actively decree something that you Passively observed or watched. Predestination becomes obsolete then, and Paul wouldn't have used that specific word over and over again if it had no meaning. The Bible uses both terms and the only way they are compatible is if the foreknowledge is based upon what God predestined.
Predestine
1. To fix upon, decide, or decree in advance; foreordain.
2. Theology. To foreordain or elect by divine will or decree.
You can have foreknowledge based on predestination, but you cannot have predestination based on foreknowledge; the two are not compatible in this order. Either God was the cause or He wasn't. Predestination by defenition says God is the cause; that he decided beforehand, or foreordained. Predestination is Active, Foreknowledge is Passive. You cannot Actively decree something that you Passively observed or watched. Predestination becomes obsolete then, and Paul wouldn't have used that specific word over and over again if it had no meaning. The Bible uses both terms and the only way they are compatible is if the foreknowledge is based upon what God predestined.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
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_Christopher
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The question about predestination may come down to: What does the bible say that the elect are predestined for? Salvation or sanctification?
Rom 8:29
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son
NKJV
Rom 8:29
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son
NKJV
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
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