Foreknowledge = Determinism? And God's Character.

[Homer]

I have been following this discussion with interest from the beginning. The idea we have free will to choose to follow and have faith in God seems to me to be inarguable. It is demanded of man from the OT through the NT. Witness Joshua's charge to Israel in ancient times:

Joshua 24:14-15 (NASB)
14. “Now, therefore, fear the Lord and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15. If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

Now it will be argued by the Calvinist that the person must be regenerated first before the choice to become a believer can be made. Regeneration is placed before faith. But what about the believers in the OT? Where do we find in the OT that believers were first regenerated?

As far as open theism goes, if God can not know what a person will choose in the future, how could He know what choices would have been made in the past had circumstances been different? Jesus clearly informs us that He could:

Matthew 11:20-24 (NASB)
20. Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent. 21. “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22. Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23. And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. 24. Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.”

And this is not the only scripture that presents this ability of God.

And consider this: If God could know now that those ancient cities would have repented if circumstances had been different He surely knew it then, yet the miracles done in Jesus' day were not done then. God in His sovereign will apparently chose not to.

How God knows what we will choose to do in the future I can not tell. If the cat is hungry and I place an open can of tuna and a peeled ripe banana in front of him I know without question what the cat will choose every time. Perhaps God, who has infinite knowledge of us, whose knowledge exceeds the total combined knowledge of everyone who ever lived, can tell infallibly, by this knowledge, every choice we will make.

Isaiah 55:8-9 (NASB)
8. “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord.
9. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

Since most of the discussion on this thread has been rather more philosophical than scriptural, I present you with this:

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free ... knowledge/

You are welcome!

[Seeker]

Calvinism requires that we believe that both God and Man have true free will with the same action. Calvinism calls this a mystery, but it's actually a rather blatant contradiction. Therefore I cannot accept this. (to go with the thread's example, God ordained inalterably that I would have the turkey sandwich today, yet I still have free will to choose the turkey sandwich)

Arminianism requires that we believe that God could foreknow all things at the time of creation, yet allow free will for Man. While this may seem a bit mysterious, it's not a blatant contradiction. Therefore I can accept this.

Calvinism asserts that not only is God of the Bible of the Calvinist variety, but that any conceivable God, if he is foreknowing, would have to be of the Calvinist sort. That notion is far too reliant on our human ability to grasp a thing that seems well outside any human ability to fully grasp. Namely, the creation event.

[Paidion]

As far as open theism goes, if God can not know what a person will choose in the future, how could He know what choices would have been made in the past had circumstances been different? Jesus clearly informs us that He could:

Matthew 11:20-24 (NASB)
20. Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent. 21. “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22. Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23. And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. 24. Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.”

It seems to me that this is not a statement of Jesus' knowledge of what would happened if circumstances had been different, but rather a prediction of what would have happened based on his knowledge of people. I think it's similar to a father today who says, "If my boy had not gotten into drugs, he would have become a normal, hard-working member of society."

[Homer]

Hi Paidion,

Good to hear from you! Hope you are doing well.

You wrote:

It seems to me that this is not a statement of Jesus' knowledge of what would happened if circumstances had been different, but rather a prediction of what would have happened based on his knowledge of people. I think it's similar to a father today who says, "If my boy had not gotten into drugs, he would have become a normal, hard-working member of society."

If that is the extent of God's ability He would be finite, just a really good guesser and only different than us by degree.

[mattrose]

If that is the extent of God's ability He would be finite, just a really good guesser and only different than us by degree.

Hi Homer!

I disagree with your point. I don't think God predicting things about the future would indicate limitations with God's nature. Certainly it is not a limitation to God's nature than He doesn't KNOW that 1+1=3. It is not a limitation to God's nature that He doesn't KNOW that a circle is also a square. God does not know these things because they are not true.

I don't believe that anyone is suggesting that the future exists and God is ignorant about it. Rather, it is suggested (by Open Theists) that the future simply doesn't yet exist. It is just philosophically impossible for God to KNOW something that doesn't exist just like God can't know logical contradictions. If the future is truly open in this sense (a point of debate because whether it is or not is not clear from Scripture), then God 'predicting' (in the sense Paidion is suggesting) makes a lot of sense. This wouldn't be a blemish on God's nature. It would just be an honest observation about the nature of reality.

[Paidion]

At the beginning of the reign of King Jehoiakim son of Josiah of Judah, this word came from the LORD: Thus says the LORD: Stand in the court of the Lord’s house, and speak to all the cities of Judah that come to worship in the house of the LORD; speak to them all the words that I command you; do not hold back a word. It may be that they will listen, all of them, and will turn from their evil way, that I may change my mind about the disaster that I intend to bring on them because of their evil doings. (Jer 26:1-3 NRSV)

In this verse, the LORD is recorded as saying "It may be that they will listen, all of them, and will turn from their evil way..." If the LORD knew whether or not they would repent of their ways, would He have said, "It may be..."? There would be no "may" about it. Rather is would be a certainty.

But not only that, but the Lord says that if they do repent, the consequent would be that He would change His mind about the disaster that He intends to bring upon them. If the LORD knew whether or not they would repent, He wouldn't be changing His mind about anything.

[Homer]

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:

At the beginning of the reign of King Jehoiakim son of Josiah of Judah, this word came from the LORD: Thus says the LORD: Stand in the court of the Lord’s house, and speak to all the cities of Judah that come to worship in the house of the LORD; speak to them all the words that I command you; do not hold back a word. It may be that they will listen, all of them, and will turn from their evil way, that I may change my mind about the disaster that I intend to bring on them because of their evil doings. (Jer 26:1-3 NRSV)

In this verse, the LORD is recorded as saying "It may be that they will listen, all of them, and will turn from their evil way..." If the LORD knew whether or not they would repent of their ways, would He have said, "It may be..."? There would be no "may" about it. Rather is would be a certainty.

But not only that, but the Lord says that if they do repent, the consequent would be that He would change His mind about the disaster that He intends to bring upon them. If the LORD knew whether or not they would repent, He wouldn't be changing His mind about anything.

Jeremiah is not much help to the open theist position. If you read chapter 7 you will find that God informed Jeremiah:

1. Jeremiah is to call on the people to repent and mend their ways.

2.They will not hear and respond to his message.

3. Therefore God will destroy them.

IMO Jeremiah 26:1-3 should be understood in light of god informing Jeremiah that the people will not repent. Joshua's preaching will leave them with no excuse, and God will change His mind about destroying them if they repent (which they will not do).

[Paidion]

Homer, where do you find that Yahweh declares that they will not repent? I cannot find that in chapter 7. And if Yahweh HAD known that they would not repent, then why tell Jeremiah to call on the people to repent and mend their ways? That sounds like an exercise in futility.

In the first part of chapter 7, Yahweh urges them to repent but then we read in the verses below that Yahweh indicates that even though He had spoken to them persistently, they did not listen, and so He tells Jeremiah that he will cast them out of His sight, and tells him not to pray for them.

9 Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, make offerings to Baal, and go after other gods that you have not known,
10 and then come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, ‘We are delivered!’ —  only to go on doing all these abominations?
11 Has this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, I myself have seen it, declares the LORD.
12 Go now to my place that was in Shiloh, where I made my name dwell at first, and see what I did to it because of the evil of my people Israel.
13 And now, because you have done all these things, declares the LORD, and when I spoke to you persistently you did not listen, and when I called you, you did not answer,
14 therefore I will do to the house that is called by my name, and in which you trust, and to the place that I gave to you and to your fathers, as I did to Shiloh.
15 And I will cast you out of my sight, as I cast out all your kinsmen, all the offspring of Ephraim.
16 "As for you, do not pray for this people, or lift up a cry or prayer for them, and do not intercede with me, for I will not hear you.

And in Chapter 8 Verse 5, He asks them through Jeremiah why they have turned away in perpetual backsliding.

[Homer]

From Jeremiah 7, NASB

13. And now, because you have done all these things,” declares the Lord, “and I spoke to you, rising up early and speaking, but you did not hear, and I called you but you did not answer"

They did not listen to God's message to them and repent.

16. “As for you, do not pray for this people, and do not lift up cry or prayer for them, and do not intercede with Me; for I do not hear you.

Jeremiah is not to even pray for them. God would not relent without their repentance

27. “You shall speak all these words to them, but they will not listen to you; and you shall call to them, but they will not answer you.

How else are we to understand this other than they will not take heed to Jeremiah and repent?

[Paidion]

The way I understand the writer, is that since they didn't listen to Yahweh when He urged them to repent, He was going to reject them—that Yahweh understood their mindset, and on that basis predicted that they were not going to repent, and so it woudn't help for Jeremiah to pray for them, since there was nothing more that Yahweh could do for them. Jeremiah could go ahead and warn them, but their persistence in their evil ways clearly indicated that they wouldn't listen. Anyone who was aware at the time of the Israelites persistence in evil, would have said the same thing, "They won't listen to you. They won't answer you. They will continue in their evil ways." It doesn't mean that anyone (including Yahweh) KNEW (in the absolute sense of "know") that they wouldn't answer, listen, or repent.