The Atonement

[Guest]

This is a continuance of Johnathon's post to Paidion in the thread Prevenient Grace. Replying to Paidion, Johnathon wrote:

Is it just for a judge to forgive men who do not glorify him in every thought and deed? Can a holy and righteous God who puts Himself above all (and must) set aside the glory of his righteousness to forgive man who places himself above God in his actions?

Would a judge be deemed "just" if he pronounces "he is not guilty" to man who has been proven guilty of murder and releases him because the murderer said he was sorry?

The judge would be thrown out of the court. The public would decry that an injustice was performed. Why? Because the law requires that the penalty of the sin be executed. Or otherwise the murderer would be esteemed higher than the law by the judge.

Does God forgive sinners at the "expense" of justice? whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ro 3:25-26). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

The penalty for sin is the wrath of God. This is why God CAN forgive those whom he atoned sin for because He can justify His forgiveness by placing the punishment for sin on Christ in the place of the sinner.

[Guest]

Is it just for a judge to forgive men who do not glorify him in every thought and deed? Can a holy and righteous God who puts Himself above all (and must) set aside the glory of his righteousness to forgive man who places himself above God in his actions?

Um, the Father in the parable of the prodigal son didn't have a problem forgiving the son when he turned to the Father for mercy.

Joel B. Green and Mark D. Baker writes:

In a playful but also jarring way, Robin Collins has made a similar point by inserting the Father described into the parable of the prodigal son. When the son returns and recognizes the error of his ways, Colin has the Father respond, "I cannot simply forgive you.... Such is the severity of my justice that the reconciliation will not be made unless the penalty is utterly paid. My wrath--my avenging justice--must be placated." Collins also provides a different ending to the parable. The older son offers to do extra work in the fields and pay his brother's penalty. "And finally, when the elder brother died of exhaustion, the father's wrath was placated against his younger son and they lived happily for the remainder of their days. [Recovering the Scandal of the Cross pg. 148, referencing Robin Collins, "Understanding Atonement: A New and Orthodox Theory," unpublished manuscript, pp. 1-2]

Also, notice how Jesus pronounced forgiveness in Mark 2:1-12 in the case of the paralytic. No reference was made to any sacrifice; neither his own future death or of any animal.

Would a judge be deemed "just" if he pronounces "he is not guilty" to man who has been proven guilty of murder and releases him because the murderer said he was sorry?

It depends on who you ask. Ever asked a Japanese audience?

The judge would be thrown out of the court. The public would decry that an injustice was performed. Why? Because the law requires that the penalty of the sin be executed. Or otherwise the murderer would be esteemed higher than the law by the judge.

You see, this will only work if the public has a western concept of justice. Yet such a concept of justice is deemed to be strange in places of the eastern world, such as Japan. In fact, not only is this concept of justice strange to the Japanese, but this concept (and the penal substitution doctrine) is actually viewed to be a stumbling-block instead of good news. When a Japanese man in Japanese culture wrongs someone, they go to that one and ask to be forgiven. Instead the one wronged saying "I forgive you," they say "there is nothing to forgive" and the two are reconciled. That is, if the one forgives the other, and they experience an at-one-ment.

The penalty for sin is the wrath of God. This is why God CAN forgive those whom he atoned sin for because He can justify His forgiveness by placing the punishment for sin on Christ in the place of the sinner.

This makes it seem like God finds it easier to punish than forgive. Also, you should read Matthew 18:23-35.

Matthew 18:23-35
“For this reason, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his slaves. As he began settling his accounts, a man who owed ten thousand talents was brought to him. Because he was not able to repay it, the lord ordered him to be sold, along with his wife, children, and whatever he possessed, and repayment to be made. Then the slave threw himself to the ground before him, saying, ‘Be patient with me, and I will repay you everything.’ The lord had compassion on that slave and released him, and forgave him the debt.

After he went out, that same slave found one of his fellow slaves who owed him one hundred silver coins. So he grabbed him by the throat and started to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ Then his fellow slave threw himself down and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will repay you.’ But he refused. Instead, he went out and threw him in prison until he repaid the debt. When his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were very upset and went and told their lord everything that had taken place.

Then his lord called the first slave and said to him, ‘Evil slave! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me! Should you not have shown mercy to your fellow slave, just as I showed it to you?’ And in anger his lord turned him over to the prison guards to torture him until he repaid all he owed. So also my heavenly Father will do to you, if each of you does not forgive your brother from your heart.

In this parable, the king represents God. So, did the king forgive freely, or did He demand a payment first to forgive the servant? In this parable we have someone who just wont forgive until they are paid to, which shows he refuses to be gracious. Intead, they demand to be bought off and because of this, they come to quite a grim end. While Jesus teaches God hates this mentality, others say this is the very nature of God and impose this mentiality upon Him!

Since Christ shows us that we are to forgive in the same way God forgives, should we do so freely, or demand a payment for our forgiveness?

[Guest]

Troy,

Interesting post. You wrote:

In this parable, the king represents God. So, did the king forgive freely, or did He demand a payment first to forgive the servant?

He did indeed forgive freely but at considerable cost to hinself. In the same way, God can be said to suffer for us through His Son. Here is an excellent article on the atonement:

Atonement: A Biblical-Theological Perspective]

[Guest]

VERY GOOD, TROY!