Prevenient Grace

[Guest]

This is the way I see the whole argument and what I get from scripture. I see that no man searchs for God. Why would men search for God if they don't know that they are loved by Him. Man has the ability to love and know love because man does know good from evil. What changes in a man when they hear the good news is they see in their hearts God does love all men, even though all men have sinned in death. Now their are some who love darkness more and continue in darkness, but the few who see the perfect love of God falls in love with God. This changes a man, love always changes a man to various degree's. Love also embodies trust, which is faith. So, now we have both unfaithful and the faithful. God gives salvation to the faithful, even though he does not deserve it, that is the grace that saves unto salvation.

All this talk about grace and salvation between various groups, the one thing they seem not to include in their analyses is perfect Love. It is as if they only take parts of scripture and not the whole council of scripture.

The whole of the law and prophets can be summed up to Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul and Love your neighbor. So this is how I start with scripture reading with this understanding of the centrallity of Love. Even Gods judgment comes from an attitude/disposition of Love. This is why I have rejected Calvinism as it seems to destroy the Love of God.

[Guest]

Thanks. Just to clarify, since you said that you agree with the article, do you then hold that the fall has left all men with an inability to turn to God and exercise faith, and that this inability can only be remedied by the administration of prevenient grace, which restores to man the ability to turn to God and exercise faith if he wills to do so?

Yes. This is correct. Theoretically, if man never encountered and come in touch (so to speak) with the grace of God, he would never want to forsake his loyalty to being in charge of his own life and sinful preferences to place a faith that is of an allegient nature, in Jesus, the emperor of the Kingdom of God. However, it is my present intuition that God is way more active than most even imagine in dispensing grace to the inhabitants of this earth. This grace comes through a myriad of avenues.

Do you believe it is given to all men at least sufficiently to overcome the inability resulting from the fall?

Yes, but I don't believe that this grace places all men in an equal neutral disposition to overcome the inability. This question dives into the question why some believe and others don't. This may be the most difficult question for non-calvinists that I have encountered, but if I were a calvinist, I think the opposite question as to why God choses Mary to be saved and not Jane is a more difficult question.

I would like to see the biblical case when you have time. I've been studying some articles on this trying to understand it better. One thing that seems clear is that if the case for prevenient grace fails, then Arminianism collapses. It's a crucial element of the system.

Cool man... Umm, you are a man right? Or are you a female? Anyways, if you would like some additional articles that are on the top of my list I would point out, I'd recommend you to definately check out Grace to Be Holy. It is the most comprehensive article/resource I have ever read that deals with God's grace. After that, I'd then recommend you check out The Order of Faith and Election in John's Gospel

I'm also trying to understand who the classical Arminians are here. Pelagianism/semi-Pelagianism seems to be the majority report around here.

Sounds cool to me. I'm a classical Arminian, but Open Theism seems to have much going for it from my perspective, which means I am not sure whether or not God has the type of forknowledge classical Arminians hold to.
Cheers,
Bob

[Guest]

Bob asked:

For the non-Calvinists here, I would ask the following questions:

1) Do you agree with Article 8 above? If not, why not? Is my follow-on comment about the necessity of prevenient grace correct?

2) Where is prevenient grace taught in the scripture?

3) Is prevenient grace given to all men equally?

4) Is prevenient grace irresistable?



1. I think so, although the language is somewhat stilted for most of us who speak modern (American) English so I would like to take a pass on this question for now. I would rather explain what I believe from scripture than from what someone else has said.

2. John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day.

3. Maybe not equally but sufficiently. Romans 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them for God is evident within them; for God made it evident within them, for since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

We didn't all have "road to Damascus experiences" when we came to faith in Christ, at least I didn't.

4. Yes. Even Paul states that obedience to the holy vision was required on his part. (Acts 26:19)

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Acts 7:51 You men who are stiff necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

Isaiah 5:3-4 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, judge between Me and My vineyard. [ie. the people of Israel] What else could I have done for My vineyard that I have not done in it? Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

In Him,

Jess

[Guest]

Article 8—Of Free Will

The condition of man after the fall of Adam is such that he cannot turn and prepare himself, by his own natural strength and works, to faith, and calling upon God; wherefore we have no power to do good works, pleasant and acceptable to God, without the grace of God by Christ preventing us, that we may have a good will, and working with us, when we have that good will.



Well, I have thought about this statement a bit more and would say the following:

I would agree with the first part of it, i.e. that prevenient grace is required for us to come to a point where we place our faith in Christ.

I would agree with Padion with respect to the second part. Evil men and women (i.e. unregenerate) can do good things. (see Luke 11:13)

I would agree with Paul in Romans, however, that Faith is not a meritorious work (Romans 3:27-28, 4:5 and 4:16) and can be exercised by the unregenerate individual in response to God's grace. (Luke 11:13 as above and John 5:24-5)

Past my bedtime, see you all later.

In Him,

Jess

[Guest]

4. Yes. Even Paul states that obedience to the holy vision was required on his part. (Acts 26:19)

I think you meant "no." The question was in a bit of a double negative. You believe it's "resistable," right -- not "irresistable."

[Guest]

bshow1 wrote:
darin-houston wrote:
bshow1 wrote:
darin-houston wrote:
Bshow,

Do you believe the regenerate (upon regeneration) are in the same state as Adam pre-fall ?


No.

Cheers,
Bob


Do you believe the regenerate (upon regeneration) are in the same state as Adam post-fall ?


No.

Cheers,
Bob


Can you elaborate? How is it similar (if at all) and different to both (as you indicate).

Bob, you're asking essentially the same question here I asked you on another thread -- you never answered me -- could you do so?

I'll ask again here:

Can you elaborate ? How is it similar (if at all) and different to both (as you indicate).

[Guest]

Darin wrote:
I think you meant "no." The question was in a bit of a double negative. You believe it's "resistable," right -- not "irresistable."

You are correct. Sorry I missed the "ir" in front of resistable.

Like I said, it was past my bed time.

[Guest]

Bob, you're asking essentially the same question here I asked you on another thread -- you never answered me -- could you do so?

I'll ask again here:

Can you elaborate ? How is it similar (if at all) and different to both (as you indicate).

I don't see how I'm asking the same question. I don't see our state after regeneration as comparable to Adam's either before or after the fall, because we have a dual nature, "simul justus et peccator." I don't see Adam in that way either before or after the fall. (Although we might discuss Adam's eventual salvation, but I don't think that's what you were getting at.)

Maybe I'm not seeing the question behind the question.

Cheers,
Bob

[Guest]

Some may have found the question about whether prevenient grace is irresistable somewhat strange. Everyone has agreed that it's certainly resistable.

But I would argue that it is irresistable (or effectual, to use a Calvinistic term), on the following basis. We need to consider the purpose of prevenient grace (according to the Arminian): to overcome the effects of the fall and restore to man the ability to exercise faith and turn to Christ for salvation.

The purpose of prevenient grace is not to save anyone, but to make people able to save themselves if they so choose.

So the question is, given that purpose, is prevenient grace irresistable or effectual in accomplishing that's purpose? In other words, is every person to whom prevenient grace is applied (which most of you has said is everyone) by virtue of that grace put into the state where they are able to exercise faith and turn to Christ for salvation? Does prevenient grace always irresistibly overcome the inability of man? It would seem that the consistent Arminian would have to answer yes, because otherwise some men would be condemned without having the ability to choose for Christ.

So prevenient grace would have to be irresistable in accomplishing its (limited) purpose.

Cheers,
Bob

[Guest]

Bob, you're asking essentially the same question here I asked you on another thread -- you never answered me -- could you do so?

I'll ask again here:

Can you elaborate ? How is it similar (if at all) and different to both (as you indicate).

I don't see how I'm asking the same question. I don't see our state after regeneration as comparable to Adam's either before or after the fall, because we have a dual nature, "simul justus et peccator." I don't see Adam in that way either before or after the fall. (Although we might discuss Adam's eventual salvation, but I don't think that's what you were getting at.)

Maybe I'm not seeing the question behind the question.

Cheers,
Bob

There's no "question" behind the question -- I'm really just trying to understand that Calvinist understanding of human nature, and what you believe about our spiritual condition after the fall and how that compares to now. I see now you would hold a different view of Adam's post-Fall condition and that of even Cain or Abel. I've never heard that before -- how is it that we would have inherited a condition not experienced by our progenitor, Adam for his own fall? How is it that man post-fall has two natures prior to regeneration? This is just something I'm working through, myself, and honestly don't know to what end this is even a distinctive presupposition behind the Calvinist view or whether we have a shared understanding throughout orthodoxy on this point (I doubt it).

I get the impression that this presupposition sort of underpins both (and other) system(s), and so I believe it merits extensive discussion. I have some works I am reading on the subject, as well.

Bob Hamilton has an essay on the subject here --

http://www.geocities.com/bobesay/original.html

though I haven't read it, his other essays are excellent.