Debating an Atheist

[TrumanSmith]

At one point you stated that perhaps Steve should have gone to seminary (like you did) to learn the Bible better. Although I've never engaged in formal debates, I understand that it's normal to at least read a short bio of the person you'll be debating beforehand so as to not make careless remarks. Steve has a lengthy bio at his website, and about a thousand free lectures on his website, going verse by verse through the entire text of the bible with remarkable depth. Yet, you'll find seminary graduates who've never even read through the bible, much less had occasion to expound on every single verse with depth.

What I meant by that is that a seminary degree teaches people to look at other sides in a debate. Apparently, Steve doesn't have any degrees at all, so I'm not sure he's familiar with academic discussions. It really doesn't matter how many times one has read the Bible, just like it doesn't matter how many times one has read Harry Potter. It is better to read the Bible once, then spend your extra time reading in other areas to expand your mind, such as philosophy, science, history, and religion in general.

Also- I know Steve Gregg had little debates with Dr. James White. Dr. White is funny because he loves to mention his doctorate degree, but if you look into it, his school is barely a step-up from a diploma mill. I know, because I researched it and almost decided to attend that school myself.

When I was in the Baptist seminary, I took a class called "Worldviews." In that class we actually learned basic biology, such as DNA and what protein synthesis is (like Steve, I didn't know about any of this prior to the class). The reason being is that the professor thought this would lead to appreciating the complexity of life, which shows what a miracle life must be (by learning about biological micro-machines and such). When you get a degree, they force you to study all sorts of things you don't normally care about, so it expands your mind. Steve Gregg has a great interest in Revelation, so he studied it and wrote a book on it. He's an expert on that. But to me, it is no more impressive than a person who is an expert on Harry Potter or Star Trek fiction.

I also took a class on "World Missions" and learned about the multitude of missionaries that died early deaths, in service to God. If Steve knew about that, then he'd never claim that God's blessing on him was some sort of validation about his personal relationship with God.

That's all I meant by saying maybe he should have attended seminary... to expand his awareness of what's out there.

[TrumanSmith]

I have built hot rods, worked in commercial construction for many years, and I work as an industrial electrician now. Throughout my life I have had to build and look at complex plans and schematics, yet when I glance inside a book on biology I see plans and designs far far far far more complex and interwoven than anything man has ever been able to design or construct (or imagine).

Do you see that, and how did that happen?

What you are seeing and concluding is perfectly reasonable... if you don't have more knowledge. It is like a child seeing a magic trick, then seeing how a person steps on a car pedal and the car goes fast, or hits a light switch and a light goes on. Obviously, those are magic too. Until you get older, get more education, and understand what's happening (and also learn that magic is not real, by the way.)

If you learn about DNA and genomics, then you see evidence for common descent, that humans descended from other animals. I gave YouTube links about this already, from Christians in science so you don't have to worry about being led astray by an atheist.

When you see and understand the evidence, then you will understand.

It is like thinking the Earth is on a sure and solid foundation (intuition), but then you learn from science that the Earth is not on any foundation, is spinning at about 1,000 mph, and going around the Sun at about 68,000 mph. It is counter-intuitive, but it is a fact. Evolution is a similar surprise to our intuition.

[CThomas]

I'm not sure why I keep getting sucked back into this ridiculous conversation. Maybe because I'm still not 100% sure this isn't a parody of poor reasoning. But on the off chance this is serious, you don't know how bad you sound when you say that you have broad exposure to ideas and critical thinking skills because you attended a Baptist seminary. Just so you know, that is not going to be perceived as inpressive by most people on either side of this debate. The funniest part of your message, though, was where you suggested that Steve may be ignorant of the fact that many missionaries died young without attaining converts. If you're joking around about all this, now is the time to fess up because it's getting old.

[TrumanSmith]

I follow Jesus because I have received the testimony of good men n' women who say that Jesus was crucified for our sins and was raised from the dead for our life.
Now for the sake of this possible discussion I will now grant you that evolution is tru, Truman. So my next question to you I suppose should be, Why is it I should stop following Jesus? (Assuming that is one of your thrusts).
God bless you,
Bud

Bud- I would say the testimony you accept (Gospels) in unreliable. Bart Ehrman, a Bible scholar, says they are all anonymously written. The Church was just being creative in assigning names to them (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John). In my booklet, I also give examples of obvious myth in the Bible and gospels. Here's an essay I wrote that is very similar to my booklet, if you want to see it for free:
http://tinyurl.com/SciPhi

Think about it critically, like you do with other religious claims (such as Joseph Smith claiming to have seen God, and him translating plate text into the Book of Mormon).

[TrumanSmith]

I'm not sure why I keep getting sucked back into this ridiculous conversation. Maybe because I'm still not 100% sure fhis isn't a parody of poir reasoning. But on the off chance this is serious, you don't jnow how bad you sound when you say that you have broad exposure to ideas an critical thinking skills because you attended a Baptist seminary. Just so you know, that is not going to be perceived as inpressive by most people on either aide of this debate. The funniest part of your message, though, was where you auggested that Steve may be ignorant of the fact that many missionaries died young without attaining converts. If you're joking around about all this, now is the time to fess up because it's getting old.

You aren't adding any content to the discussion.

[CThomas]

I'm not trying to add content because I haven't seen any from you. I'm (a) expressing astonishment and (b) trying to be charitable toward you and let you know a few of the larger respects in which you are making yourself look ridiculous in public.

[TrumanSmith]

I'm not trying to add content because I haven't seen any from you. I'm (a) expressing astonishment and (b) trying to be charitable toward you and let you know a few of the larger respects in which you are making yourself look ridiculous in public.

I think this place is meant to be a discussion forum, not a rant forum. If you aren't contributing content, you are just burning-up discussion space.

[PR]

"When you see and understand the evidence, then you will understand."

Hi Truman. So when you look around at the sophistication of the universe with the miracle of your own eyesight, from the molecular to the galatic, do you honestly believe that it created itself without any guidance? If so, then your beliefs require perhaps the greatest faith of all the belief systems that I've ever encountered.

If Darwin were alive today, all he'd have to be shown is the wonder of the DNA double helix, and he'd probably chuck his theory of naturalistic macro evolution right in the trash!

PR

[CThomas]

Fair enough, Truman. I'll leave you alone. I hope, for your sake, that you one day come to know the living God. But if you do, I hope that you do not attempt to engage in apologetics on behalf of the faith. As a debater, I prefer to have you on the other side.

CThomas

[Jason]

I also took a class on "World Missions" and learned about the multitude of missionaries that died early deaths, in service to God. If Steve knew about that, then he'd never claim that God's blessing on him was some sort of validation about his personal relationship with God.

That's all I meant by saying maybe he should have attended seminary... to expand his awareness of what's out there.

Truman, I think the problem is that you don't know Steve very well. His theology is as far from the "prosperity gospel" as one could get, and even has a series of lectures refuting it. Do you think he's unaware of Christian martyrs? I'm really struggling to understand why you think such bizarre things about him. Even young Christians know these things, without having gone to seminary. Did you not study things on your own when you were a Christian? Did you not read books by theologians and philosophers and historians? Why do you assume only people who go to seminary engage in such things? This is truly baffling.

I believe you when you say that you were once a Christian, but it seems that you assume all other Christians are of the same sort that you were. That seems a bit provincial, and even naive. It may have been the case that you (apart from being forced to in seminary) did not read widely or discuss things with knowledgeable people. But it wouldn't be safe to project those shortcomings onto others. I think the kind of Christianity that you clung to earlier in life is easy to refute. If you were surprised to find out that the Christian life includes pain and suffering and anguish, you probably missed those verses where Jesus promised these things. It doesn't take going to seminary to know this. I have had very close friends who were Muslims and Agnostics and we had no trouble challenging and learning from one another. Perhaps you were not tested much when you were a Christian, because the arguments that seem impressive to you are actually not very impressive to rigorous thinkers or those who've been around the block, so to speak. Were you perhaps sheltered a bit when you were in the faith?