What is the meaning and purpose of life?

[Paidion]

Thanks Robby. There does seem to be SOME ways in which I think like the writer of Ecclesiastes.

However, he comes off as pessimistic in the book. I am not pessimistic. I love life, the joys of marriage, and the many other good things that life affords. I love the Lord and His works. I am privileged to live in the backwoods of Northern Ontario, and I can take walks in the forest, untouched by man (except my gathering of winter firewood from it) and admire its beauty, including the gorgeous wild flowers which grow there—the showy ladyslippers, the greater yellow ladyslippers, the columbine, the mertensia, the Joe-Pye flowers, the wild roses, the pitcher-plants, etc., etc. that grow in the forest and swamp. I am ever aware of the glory of God in his great creation! My wife and I are most blessed in so many ways!

Yet, I am also aware of the sorrows of the world: the death of children in their infancy, children being forced into prostitution, tortures, rapes, men raging at their wives and children causing terror to them, men beating their wives and children or even killing them, women who do likewise, the ravages of war and the great suffering on all sides, people taking monetary advantage of the poor, people suffering from cancer and other painful terminal illnesses, people at a loss as to how to cope with life, etc., etc. I see no meaning or purpose in all of this. Some say that God "allows" all of these things for a deeper purpose, though He doesn't reveal what that deeper purpose is. And couldn't he have brought about these deeper results without having to use such suffering as a means to bringing about these purposes? I simply reject that God has anything to do with this suffering. God is fully LOVE, and has no pleasure in the death even of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11).

Why then all this suffering? Much of it results from the evil, free-will choice of man. But how about natural disasters? Earthquakes, floods, tsunamis, etc.? These may have all resulted from man's fall. There is no evidence that the Garden of Eden, the birthplace of mankind, had any natural disasters prior to the fall—not even death. But God offers hope in that he will restore things on earth as they were meant to be. "Meant to be"? Meaning and purpose? Yes, God has ultimate purposes which He will eventually fulfill.

[robbyyoung]

Why then all this suffering? Much of it results from the evil, free-will choice of man. But how about natural disasters? Earthquakes, floods, tsunamis, etc.? These may have all resulted from man's fall. There is no evidence that the Garden of Eden, the birthplace of mankind, had any natural disasters prior to the fall—not even death. But God offers hope in that he will restore things on earth as they were meant to be. "Meant to be"? Meaning and purpose? Yes, God has ultimate purposes which He will eventually fulfill.

Hi Paidion,

Thanks for sharing your beautiful surroundings in which God blessed you with. The purpose of suffering is given throughout scripture, such as James 5:10-11 "As an example of suffering and patience, brothers, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. Behold, we consider those blessed who remained steadfast. You have heard of the steadfastness of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the Lord, how the Lord is compassionate and merciful."

Apparently, God's mercy and compassion is on display.

Consider Hebrews 11:36-38 "Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated— of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth."

Compare with James 1:2-4 "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing."

Or how about God granting us to have the privilege of suffering for Christ - Philippians 1:29

As for the unsaved, I see no reason to believe God's mercy and compassion is any different.

God Bless.

[Paidion]

Thanks for sharing your beautiful surroundings in which God blessed you with. The purpose of suffering is given throughout scripture, such as James 5:10-11 "As an example of suffering and patience, brothers, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. Behold, we consider those blessed who remained steadfast. You have heard of the steadfastness of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the Lord, how the Lord is compassionate and merciful."

Apparently, God's mercy and compassion is on display.

Consider Hebrews 11:36-38 "Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated— of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth."

Compare with James 1:2-4 "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing."

Or how about God granting us to have the privilege of suffering for Christ - Philippians 1:29

I have no problem with any of that, Robby. God's people have always suffered for His sake. He doesn't cause that suffering. Nor does He allow it in the sense that He uses it to "test our faith or produce steadfastnesss". The testing of our faith and steadfastness are simply the natural consequence of our suffering. But He does allow it in the sense of usually doing nothing to prevent it. James wrote as He did to encourage the brethren in the midst of their suffering.

However, there is another kind of suffering in the world which seems of a different order, such atrocities as parents killing babies by placing them in boiling water, the torture and rape of little girls, etc. No suffering of this order tests faith or produces steadfastness. Indeed, the commission of such atrocites has the tendency of destroying people's faith in God. I see no meaning or purpose in these sufferings. They were caused by evil and/or heartless people or demon-inspired people. Again, there are a considerable number of such atrocities committed. I explain it by the freedom of man's will which allows him to perform extremely evil acts (Hitler and Stalin for example) as well as unusually good acts (Mother Theresa for example). If God did not permit man to work evil, He would be interfering with man's free will. He doesn't want a race of robots, but a race of free-will agents who will choose to serve Him and work righteousness. I do not accept the idea that God had a deeper purpose in "allowing" these atrocities. The omniopotent God can fulfill His purposes without the occurence of atrocities. He didn't allow them in the sense of permitting them—only in the sense of doing nothing to prevent them. Is there any rational explanation for God doing nothing to prevent them other than the free-will explanation?

[robbyyoung]

I have no problem with any of that, Robby. God's people have always suffered for His sake. He doesn't cause that suffering. Nor does He allow it in the sense that He uses it to "test our faith or produce steadfastness".

Sure He does. God not only allows it, but He causes it in grand fashion. How would you explain the awful sufferings GOD bestowed on the Egyptians? GOD Himself personally DID IT. This is just one of many examples and an unmistakable one at that.

The testing of our faith and steadfastness are simply the natural consequence of our suffering.

This contradicts Job's experience. There was nothing natural about his sufferings. He was going about his life and God allowed these calamities to come upon him and his family to prove the patience of Job against The Devil's accusations. (James 5:11)

But He does allow it in the sense of usually doing nothing to prevent it. James wrote as He did to encourage the brethren in the midst of their suffering.

No Paidion, God allowed it and then set the rules concerning what The Devil can and cannot do. That's not "doing nothing to prevent it". This was a mutual arrangement to test Job's patience, The Devil for evil and God for good.

However, there is another kind of suffering in the world which seems of a different order, such atrocities as parents killing babies by placing them in boiling water, the torture and rape of little girls, etc. No suffering of this order tests faith or produces steadfastness.

This is your belief, however, how do you know someones faith or steadfastness isn't being tested? How would you account for the death of Job's family? What about their faith and steadfastness? What is your reply to God, as the Righteous Judge, to justify this action?

Indeed, the commission of such atrocites has the tendency of destroying people's faith in God. I see no meaning or purpose in these sufferings.

Again this is your belief and you are welcomed to it, however, where is your biblical support for the absence of meaning and purpose in suffering?

They were caused by evil and/or heartless people or demon-inspired people.

I think we should be careful in our analysis of causation, otherwise we start making the charge against God Himself. Again, consider The Egyptians during The Exodus. God afflicted them greatly, both man and beast, the land as well. God also killed every Egyptian's firstborn. This is just one of many instances in which God acted as Judge of the living and the dead.

Again, there are a considerable number of such atrocities committed. I explain it by the freedom of man's will which allows him to perform extremely evil acts (Hitler and Stalin for example) as well as unusually good acts (Mother Theresa for example). If God did not permit man to work evil, He would be interfering with man's free will. He doesn't want a race of robots, but a race of free-will agents who will choose to serve Him and work righteousness.

Paidion, God interferes with man's freewill all the time. God hardens hearts and quickens man's spirit, consider this from Heb 8:10

"I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts:"

Well what if man doesn't want God putting His law into their minds and writing them in their hearts? Well too bad, God is going to do it anyway without their permission. Our freewill is subordinate to God's purposes. The Apostle Paul was perfectly fine serving The Lord during his persecution of The Church. By his own freewill he wanted nothing to do with Yeshua or His message. But that freewill of disbelief meant absolutely nothing to God's purpose for him. For The Lord in grand fashion intervened in Paul's freewill and told him he is now obligated to suffer for His name. It seems that God will interfere with man's freewill whenever and however He chooses for His own purposes.

I do not accept the idea that God had a deeper purpose in "allowing" these atrocities.

I understand, however, your rejection of purpose is your personal belief but unsupported by scripture.

The omniopotent God can fulfill His purposes without the occurence of atrocities.

Tell that to the Egyptians and nations to whom God purged from The Land of promise. Or better yet, how about the Israelites themselves concerning the curses that would befall them by the hand of God Himself if they didn't abide by the covenant.

He didn't allow them in the sense of permitting them—only in the sense of doing nothing to prevent them.

Scripture shows this to be false. I've already commented on this above.

Is there any rational explanation for God doing nothing to prevent them other than the free-will explanation?

Man's freewill is an ancillary agent to God's purpose. Again, how do you know God is doing nothing? How do you know that God isn't the causation? I know what your belief is, but I've given you a reasonable explanation, through scripture, how God is fully involved in these matters, as a causation and enabler as The Righteous Judge of The Earth.

Gen 18:25 Far be it from you to do such a thing--to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?

God Bless.