Hi Steve,
I listened to your tape on this debate but the MP3 does not cover the debate in its entirety (you were cut off in the middle of your first rebuttal).
You emphasized that one has to continually believe (he who believes), abide (he who abides).. he who eats... he who drinks.. to remain saved. I personally believe this but I'm just curious how you responded to Tom Morris' comment that the verbs used in the texts are of the aorist tense. He pointed out (as I perceived him to) that this tense refers to one-time/one deal action..
Justified, being sanctified and will be glorified IN HIM,
Richard A.
Eternal Security Debate with Tom Morris
Eternal Security Debate with Tom Morris
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Hi Richard and Sean,
Thanks for asking about this.
The debate with Tom Morris was held in the church where he is pastor, and was taped by someone in his congregation. The person taping did not pay very close attention to his job, and did not turn the tape over until quite a bit of the debate was lost. The recording on our website (www.thenarrowpath.com) contains all that was recorded of the debate. I was disappointed not to have gotten the whole thing.
As I recall, the verses in question were John 4:13 and 14,—"Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst." I claimed that, in verse 14 we have a construction common to many statements in John's Gospel, wherein a certain, continuous action is spoken of as taking place presently and an unending result follows. For example:
John 6:35—"I am the bread of life: he that comes to me shall never hunger; and he that believes on me shall never thirst." [i.e., the one who is coming will never hunger (so long as he is coming), and the believing will never thirst (so long as he is believing)]
John 8:51—"If anyone keeps my word, he shall never see death." [i.e. the man keeping Christ's word will never see death (while keeping Christ's word)]
John 10:28—"And I give unto [my sheep] eternal life; and they shall never perish" [i.e., those who are Christ's sheep shall never perish (so long as they are His sheep—which involves continuously hearing His voice and following Him—v.27)]
John 11:26—"And whoever...believes in me shall never die." [i.e., the one believing will never die (while believing)]
Tom Morris argued that the action of the man drinking, believing, coming, etc. is not continuous (as I suggested), but is a one-time action—suggested by the use of the aorist tense in the Greek. He made, in my opinion, a strong point with this, though it is not so simple as he implied.
I am not Greek scholar, but those who are have been known to say that it is a mistake to oversimplify one's definition of the aorist tense. I have often read that the aorist tense represents a simple past tense. Some say it means a single action done in the past, but having permanent effects (this would serve Tom Morris' purpose). This would make the statement of Jesus mean, "whoever drank one time of the water I shall give him will never thirst."
"However, the aorist has a wide range of uses. In John 4:14, both the word "drink" and the word "thirst" are aorists, yet the latter clearly has a future (not past) meaning—"will not ever thirst again."
Here is how I would defend my contention about the meaning of these verses:
1. Of the five instances listed above, two clearly have the meaning I suggested, because they do not use the aorist tense but the present active participle, suggesting continuous action.—i.e. "he that is believing" (6:35); "whoever is believing" (11:26). Another, similar, instance of the present active participle would be John 3:36—"he that is not obeying shall not see life" (obviously he shall not see life as long as he continues disobeying, but if that circumstance were to change, then he would indeed see life).
2. The passage about the "sheep" never perishing (10:27-28) describes the sheep as "hearing" and "following" in the present tense, not the aorist.
3. Two of the verses in question use the "aorist subjunctive active" tense. One is the verse under consideration (John 4:14), and the other is John 8:51—"if anyone keeps my word..." It is clear that "keeping" something cannot be viewed as an action of a moment. You can receive something in a moment, but keeping it is an ongoing action. Yet, this word (which clearly speaks of continuous action) is in the same aorist tense as is the word "drink" in John 4:14. Hence, we need be careful about limiting an aorist to a single action in a point of time.
I conclude, therefore, that this particular construction, found so frequently in John—although sometimes employing a form of the aorist, and other times using the present or a present participle—has the same meaning in every case. That is, the person who believes, comes, drinks, keeps, hears, follows, etc., will never die, thirst, hunger, perish, etc. so long as the action is continued. As I mentioned in point #1 (above), this is clearly the meaning in John 3:36, and seems to be the meaning in all the similar instances.
Keep on keeping...
Thanks for asking about this.
The debate with Tom Morris was held in the church where he is pastor, and was taped by someone in his congregation. The person taping did not pay very close attention to his job, and did not turn the tape over until quite a bit of the debate was lost. The recording on our website (www.thenarrowpath.com) contains all that was recorded of the debate. I was disappointed not to have gotten the whole thing.
As I recall, the verses in question were John 4:13 and 14,—"Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst." I claimed that, in verse 14 we have a construction common to many statements in John's Gospel, wherein a certain, continuous action is spoken of as taking place presently and an unending result follows. For example:
John 6:35—"I am the bread of life: he that comes to me shall never hunger; and he that believes on me shall never thirst." [i.e., the one who is coming will never hunger (so long as he is coming), and the believing will never thirst (so long as he is believing)]
John 8:51—"If anyone keeps my word, he shall never see death." [i.e. the man keeping Christ's word will never see death (while keeping Christ's word)]
John 10:28—"And I give unto [my sheep] eternal life; and they shall never perish" [i.e., those who are Christ's sheep shall never perish (so long as they are His sheep—which involves continuously hearing His voice and following Him—v.27)]
John 11:26—"And whoever...believes in me shall never die." [i.e., the one believing will never die (while believing)]
Tom Morris argued that the action of the man drinking, believing, coming, etc. is not continuous (as I suggested), but is a one-time action—suggested by the use of the aorist tense in the Greek. He made, in my opinion, a strong point with this, though it is not so simple as he implied.
I am not Greek scholar, but those who are have been known to say that it is a mistake to oversimplify one's definition of the aorist tense. I have often read that the aorist tense represents a simple past tense. Some say it means a single action done in the past, but having permanent effects (this would serve Tom Morris' purpose). This would make the statement of Jesus mean, "whoever drank one time of the water I shall give him will never thirst."
"However, the aorist has a wide range of uses. In John 4:14, both the word "drink" and the word "thirst" are aorists, yet the latter clearly has a future (not past) meaning—"will not ever thirst again."
Here is how I would defend my contention about the meaning of these verses:
1. Of the five instances listed above, two clearly have the meaning I suggested, because they do not use the aorist tense but the present active participle, suggesting continuous action.—i.e. "he that is believing" (6:35); "whoever is believing" (11:26). Another, similar, instance of the present active participle would be John 3:36—"he that is not obeying shall not see life" (obviously he shall not see life as long as he continues disobeying, but if that circumstance were to change, then he would indeed see life).
2. The passage about the "sheep" never perishing (10:27-28) describes the sheep as "hearing" and "following" in the present tense, not the aorist.
3. Two of the verses in question use the "aorist subjunctive active" tense. One is the verse under consideration (John 4:14), and the other is John 8:51—"if anyone keeps my word..." It is clear that "keeping" something cannot be viewed as an action of a moment. You can receive something in a moment, but keeping it is an ongoing action. Yet, this word (which clearly speaks of continuous action) is in the same aorist tense as is the word "drink" in John 4:14. Hence, we need be careful about limiting an aorist to a single action in a point of time.
I conclude, therefore, that this particular construction, found so frequently in John—although sometimes employing a form of the aorist, and other times using the present or a present participle—has the same meaning in every case. That is, the person who believes, comes, drinks, keeps, hears, follows, etc., will never die, thirst, hunger, perish, etc. so long as the action is continued. As I mentioned in point #1 (above), this is clearly the meaning in John 3:36, and seems to be the meaning in all the similar instances.
Keep on keeping...
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve