'The Message' on Romans 5:13

[Sean]

Thanks for the post Matt.

As far as why people died before the law (considering Paul's statement in Rom 5:14) I take a very simple approach to that.

Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"—23 therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

Reading this passage at face value seems to suggest that the reason people die is because they do not have access to the tree of life. It certainly was "Adam's fault" that brought this circumstance about. But this is not the same as saying we all die because Adam's sin is imputed to us. We all die because there is no access to the tree of life, so apart from God's supernatural intervention (i.e. Enoch) we face physical death. This will be reversed one day in the new creation, but until then we continue to die physically.

[darinhouston]

Reading this passage at face value seems to suggest that the reason people die is because they do not have access to the tree of life. It certainly was "Adam's fault" that brought this circumstance about. But this is not the same as saying we all die because Adam's sin is imputed to us. We all die because there is no access to the tree of life, so apart from God's supernatural intervention (i.e. Enoch) we face physical death. This will be reversed one day in the new creation, but until then we continue to die physically.

Isn't the "mortality" aspect of death a different concept from that addressed here by Paul ? Isn't he speaking of spiritual life/death and our separation from God ? Adam was still in the garden when he felt his separation and the guilt arising from the transgression of the "law" given to him with respect to the forbidden fruit. This must be separate from the ultimate physical death he would experience. Which (or both of which) relates to access to the tree, I don't know. Something here hints at metaphor for the tree since it does seem to be related to Christ and our communion with Him in the new Earth, but that's a very different discussion.

[Sean]

Reading this passage at face value seems to suggest that the reason people die is because they do not have access to the tree of life. It certainly was "Adam's fault" that brought this circumstance about. But this is not the same as saying we all die because Adam's sin is imputed to us. We all die because there is no access to the tree of life, so apart from God's supernatural intervention (i.e. Enoch) we face physical death. This will be reversed one day in the new creation, but until then we continue to die physically.

Isn't the "mortality" aspect of death a different concept from that addressed here by Paul ? Isn't he speaking of spiritual life/death and our separation from God ? Adam was still in the garden when he felt his separation and the guilt arising from the transgression of the "law" given to him with respect to the forbidden fruit. This must be separate from the ultimate physical death he would experience. Which (or both of which) relates to access to the tree, I don't know. Something here hints at metaphor for the tree since it does seem to be related to Christ and our communion with Him in the new Earth, but that's a very different discussion.

Yes, it is true that there is another aspect to it. That seems to be the "knowledge" aspect.

Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 7:7 I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.

Just as being without law sin "was dead", being with law (having the knowledge of sin) made one aware they were a lawbreaker. I'm still not sure there's a spiritual aspect to this though. Could it truly be said that total pagans who have never known a single law of God are (still) spiritually alive and still on good terms with God? Are they indeed sinless because they may have never felt condemned over breaking a command of God?

It seems that what Adam felt was the guilt associated with breaking a command of God. He knew he did wrong. So he, at that moment understood his relationship with God to be broken because of his transgression. If Adam was indeed "spiritually dead" then why did he hide? How would he even have this concept to hide if he had no understanding of spiritual matters? It seems that Paul's statement is the knowledge that one deserves punishment for his sin, and that punishment is death. Once you understand God has a law and you have broken that law, your attitude has changed from "I didn't know anything was wrong" to "I'm a lawbreaker". In other words, your conscience kicks in and condemns you. I would think that one who is truly dead spiritually would not have a conscience at all.

I don't know if any of that makes sense or not. I'm just rambling.