Fire Insurance? (June 10 Show)

[steve]

Hi Homer,

I believe that the thief on the cross came to Christ because he was impressed with Christ on His own merits, meaning he was at "Step 3" of Bernard's ladder. I do believe that people often come to Christ for self-interest, but I think that regeneration reorients their hearts to love God for Himself.

[kaufmannphillips]

Hi, Steve - It's nice to hear from you.

kaufmannphillips wrote:
"Be not like servants who minister to their master upon the condition of receiving a reward; but be like servants who minister to their master without the condition of receiving a reward; and let the fear of Heaven be upon you."

Mishnah Avot 1:3, trans. Joseph Hertz

steve7150 wrote:
Emmet isn't avoiding the wrath of God a reward of sorts in that your quote emphasizes "the fear of Heaven" should be upon you?

(a) On one hand, we have the perennial issue of what "the fear of Heaven" (= "the fear of G-d" in pious Jewishspeak) connotes.

(b) Should one consider the government not beating them/throwing them into prison a "reward"?

[Homer]

I had posted from Bernard:

Step 1 Love of self for self's sake

We can not love others unless we first love ourselves, and unless we love our neighbors, we cannot love God. "For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church" [Ephesians 5:29 (New King James Version)] This self love, however, must be restrained.

I think Augustine's words will help clarify what is meant:

"He who knows how to love himself loves God; but he who does not love God, even though he loves himself as nature bids him, is better said to hate himself since he acts in a way to be his own adversary."

[Jason]

No, it didn't bounce. In fact, I have already gotten a response to it from you (unless it was another Jason, in which case, I am not sure if I got your email). The one I responded to was titled, "A friend in need..."

Steve, that must be another Jason. My e-mail was titled "Let's Meet" and it was a request for a speaking engagement.

**Edit**
I sent you a PM with the info!

[Jason]

Emmet wrote:

(b) Should one consider the government not beating them/throwing them into prison a "reward"?

Yes. It's their reward for not breaking the law.

[steve7150]

(a) On one hand, we have the perennial issue of what "the fear of Heaven" (= "the fear of G-d" in pious Jewishspeak) connotes.




Emmet, I would think from the jewish perspective it means avoiding curses from God and striving for blessings thus rewards are in sight which is a method God does use throughout the entire bible.
It appears that blessings and curses whether in this life or the next is a method God uses regularly therefore if God sees fit to employ this with us , i think we should remember that he knows us better then we know ourselves.

[kaufmannphillips]

kaufmannphillips wrote:
"Be not like servants who minister to their master upon the condition of receiving a reward; but be like servants who minister to their master without the condition of receiving a reward; and let the fear of Heaven be upon you."

Mishnah Avot 1:3, trans. Joseph Hertz

steve7150 wrote:
Emmet isn't avoiding the wrath of God a reward of sorts in that your quote emphasizes "the fear of Heaven" should be upon you?

kaufmannphillips wrote:
Should one consider the government not beating them/throwing them into prison a "reward"?

Jason wrote:
Yes. It's their reward for not breaking the law.

(a) This plays like an episode of "That '70s Show"...

Eric: Hey, Dad - can I have the keys to the Vista Cruiser?

Red: No.

Eric: But I got all "A"s and "B"s on my report card. Shouldn't I get a reward for that?

Red: Your reward is me not putting my foot in your [censored]!

(b) In a simple view, avoiding punishment is not a matter of reward any more than avoiding a fine is a matter of profit.

If one should object that this does not account for every possible construal of the situation, Tractate Avot is not concerned with nailing down every subtle complication; the tractate is in the genre of wisdom literature, which is rife with generalization and rhetorical inexactitude. Such can be a stumbling-block to the hyperanalytical mind, which can be annoyed by studying a book like Proverbs. (There's a book to set the hyperanalytical mind spinning; one could spend months cataloguing caveats and exceptions to statements made in Proverbs.)

(c) Here's a homiletic riff for the pericope: rather than engaging G-d as someone useful for your ambitions, engage him as someone whom you wouldn't dare to think of as useful.

[kaufmannphillips]

kaufmannphillips wrote:
On one hand, we have the perennial issue of what "the fear of Heaven" (= "the fear of G-d" in pious Jewishspeak) connotes.

steve7150 wrote:
Emmet, I would think from the jewish perspective it means avoiding curses from God and striving for blessings thus rewards are in sight which is a method God does use throughout the entire bible.
It appears that blessings and curses whether in this life or the next is a method God uses regularly therefore if God sees fit to employ this with us , i think we should remember that he knows us better then we know ourselves.

(a) I welcome references from Jewish sources to support your articulation of "the [J]ewish perspective."

(b) Some Christians might hold the perspective that life in the world to come is a gift from G-d, and not a reward.

(c) What we have received affords a beginning to understanding, not an end. Though G-d may employ mechanisms of reward and punishment in his engagement with us, this does not necessarily telegraph the most desirable dynamic of relationship between people and G-d.

When we first woo a potential mate, we may highlight (subtly or otherwise) our "selling points"; but after thirty years of marriage, we might be sad if our relationship were based upon selling points. Again, when we raise children, we often employ mechanisms of reward and punishment in the formation of good behavior; but we would be gravely disappointed to have to resort to such measures when they reach their forties.

Blessings and curses are suitable motivators for persons who have not advanced far in their relationship with G-d; thus, they require motivating interests oriented toward themselves. But for those who have grown in relationship with G-d, their motivating interests will orient outside themselves, and toward their Beloved.

[steve7150]

(a) I welcome references from Jewish sources to support your articulation of "the [J]ewish perspective."

(b) Some Christians might hold the perspective that life in the world to come is a gift from G-d, and not a reward.




Emmet, I have a radical new approach, it's called being a bible believer therefore i get the jewish perspective from Duet 28 , the blessings and curses and for Christians from Matthew 5-7 in which Jesus often references rewards in heaven.
Yes life in the world to come is a gift as is this life but beyond that Jesus did speak of rewards which may sound a bit unsophisticated but spiritually speaking all of us are really little children.

[kaufmannphillips]

steve7150 wrote:
Emmet, I have a radical new approach, it's called being a bible believer

"Radical," yes. "New" is relative, but certainly there is an older approach.

steve7150 wrote:
therefore i get the jewish perspective from Duet 28 , the blessings and curses and for Christians from Matthew 5-7 in which Jesus often references rewards in heaven.

Please explain how Deuteronomy 28 yields "[the fear of G-d] means avoiding curses from God and striving for blessings."

Also, would you normally consider a single passage to establish "the [J]ewish perspective" on a topic?

steve7150 wrote:
Yes life in the world to come is a gift as is this life but beyond that Jesus did speak of rewards which may sound a bit unsophisticated but spiritually speaking all of us are really little children.

It is a primary purpose for children to grow into adults. When Jesus exhorts the disciples to become like children, the exhortation is not a blanket endorsement of childish behaviors or perspectives.