The Narrow Path Ministries

1. If Mohammed was given the allegedly divine Quran in private by Gabriel, and Joseph was given the allegedly divine BOM in private by Moroni, why should we reject one and not the other?

Joseph Smith wasn’t given the divine BOM in private. There were 11 other witnesses.

2. Given that 1) both Islam and LDS defer to their post-Biblical documents as superior and 2) count inconsistencies of the Bible with their post-Biblical documents as corruptions in the Biblical text, why should the BOM be accepted while the Quran is rejected?

As I understand the Koran, it rejects the entire gospel message that the Apostles gave claiming that they were mistaken about the death and resurrection as well as the divine nature and sonship of Christ. The Book of Mormon on the other hand emphasizes and testifies of the truthfulness of the apostles message. Islam teaches that the New testament was changed while the Book of Mormon teaches that important doctrines were left out. There is a big difference between the two. We don’t doubt the truthfulness of what is in the current Biblical record, we simply don’t believe that everything important that Jesus or his apostles had to say was passed down See 1 Nephi 13.29

You claim that to deal with supposed inconsistencies, mormons simply say the BOM must be correct and the Bible mistaken. I am struggling to think of situations where this is the case. Christians make up inconsistencies between LDS doctrines and the bible just like atheists make up inconsistencies between different bible passages but there are very few, if any, true contradictions.

For example, you bring up 2 Timothy 3:16-17 as if it is a contradiction. Note however that it says “all scripture” not, the old Testament and New testament (which as you properly state wasn’t yet completed.) I am still uncertain as to where you get the idea that the canon of scripture was ever meant to close.

As far as the Melchizedek question goes, the first 7 non LDS commentaries I found after a short google search of Hebrews 7:3 state that this verse doesn't mean that Melchizedek had no mortal beginning or end but that this verse in Timothy refers to the fact that his priesthood didn’t come down through a genealogical lineage of priestly fathers like the Jews were accustomed to but directly from God as a stand alone priesthood, just like Jesus’ priesthood did. See the commentaries here. http://bible.cc/hebrews/7-3.htm
This of course is exactly what Alma chapter 13 is pointing out, namely that he did have a father, but that isn’t where his priesthood came from. There is no contradiction here, only in that a misunderstanding of the Jewish Idioms can cause confusion. Of course there is also a chance that these 7 commentaries are all wrong, and Alma is also.

3. How can you accept Joseph Smith over the apostles?

I don’t accept him over the apostles, I accept him with the apostles, just as I accept Paul with the other apostles not over them. Joseph was an apostle also chosen of God. I accept him with the others.

I don’t believe the foundation of the church was ever shaky, I do believe that the falling away prophesied by Paul has already occurred and that during this falling away the foundation of the church had no mortal representatives for a season. That season ended with the restoration of the gospel and the Lord has chosen mortal men to fill the role of apostles and prophets once again in preparation for the physical return of the chief cornerstone.

That is how I understand the answers to your questions anyway but I am always open to adjusting my views upon receiving further light and understanding.

I couldnt resist answering, since my love of apologetics comes from my having been LDS, wanting answers, and I have a lot of friends I made while I was LDS. Mkprr it is great you are willing to challange yourself and others on what we believe and trust as truth. So few care about their faith, and as 'Steve' has said; Why should God care about your faith if you dont? Other Mormons and Christians should be so brave.
You mentioned that Joseph had witnesses, you know LDS church history shows the '3' witnesses never actually 'saw' the plates, it was a 'vision' they saw of the plates in the hand of the angel. Although they never officially renounced the testimony, all 3 were excommunicated, at one time by Joseph Smith, in what seems to have been angry disagreements.
The other '8' witnesses are no more impressive, their viewing of the 'plates' always involved secret hiding places, walks through the woods, feeling through fabrics, the plates appear then disappear, sink back into the earth, etc. Joseph wrote the testimonies himself then had them sign them, they are not individual testimonies. 'All' the 8 witnesses were related to Joseph in one way or another, 4 or 5 of them were Whitmers and all the Whitmers left the church. David Whitmer even wrote in his own pamphlet that God had 'spoke to him' that he should leave the Latter day saints. He and some of the others including Martin Harris joined a guy named Strang (?) who also claimed to have recieved some plates. This is not a story of 12 good witnesses, the history and details behind all this reveal even more wacky stuff. Do you know what upper state new york was like in the 1830's; It was a very excited, hyper-religious, very superstitious, and full of 'money digging'. Oliver Cowdery and Joseph were both well known diviners, this is no secret. God objects to witchcraft and the occult as much adultery, as if it is a sin greater than all others, for the occult is to commune with other' spirits that disguise themselves as speaking for God. Dont you know Joseph was a money digger?

I look forward to talking with you and hearing more especially because you have a good background in the LDS church. If you see long spells of me not replying don't be alarmed, I don't have a lot of free time but I am very much interested in what you and others here have to say. I really like this crowd and really enjoy Steve's teaching style. The love people here have for the scriptures is contagious.

I think a new thread talking just about the witnesses would be good to start because there is a lot that can be said about them alone. If you are interested let's start one.

In short yes I am well aware that the 3 witnesses saw the plates in a vision accompanied by an angel and also heard what they believed to be the audible voice of God but that they never claimed to touch them This is all clear in their original signed testimony that is found in every BOM. I believe you are mistaken about the 8 witnesses also not seeing and handling the plates with their hands natural eyes but I am interested in looking at the source material for the claims you made above. I could very well be mistaken, it wouldn't be the first time:)

I am aware of the excommunication and falling away of many of the witnesses. I am always amazed that anyone would point this out as if it weakened their testimonies. It doesn’t at all, it makes their witness all the more credible. If the three and 8 witnesses had been in on a conspiracy any one of them could have single handedly blown the cover. Yet all of them were adamantly faithful to their original testimonies to their death even during times when they were deeply bitter against Joseph Smith and the Church. I am aware that there are claims that some may have recanted but I’ve read the sources carefully and they don’t seem to hold water at all, we’ll have to discuss that further on the witnesses thread if you are interested.

I’m not any more bothered by Joseph’s money digging past than I am about Moses’ murderous past, Pauls past as an enemy to the Christians, or any Christians past religious ideas, practices or deeds before they accepted and truly understood the gospel Jesus Christ. I’m also not any more bothered by Smith’s use of a seer stone than I am with Moses’ or Aaron’s use of a staff to imitate the tricks of pharaoh’s satanic magicians or to perform other wonders and miracles. I think both instances of Moses’ staff, and Smiths use of a seer stone are strange but they don’t hurt their credentials in my eyes. You may know something about Smith’s past however that I’m not aware of and I’d be glad to investigate further if you have anything you think that it is of concern.
I’ve gone on too long already which will cause most people to skip over this post but in short, I think Joseph, along with many other Christians in Palmyra, was involved in some very bad unchristian religious practices but because of the times he lived in, he didn’t recognize them for what they were at first and has since shown the full fruits of repentance.

Anyway, you bring up a lot of good points that I think are all worthy of consideration. If I were to reject Joseph Smith because of those things though, I think I would have a hard time justifying my belief in some parts of the Bible.

Isaiah 19:3 "Then the spirit of the Egyptians will be demoralized within them; And I will confound their strategy, So that they will resort to idols and ghosts of the dead And to mediums and spiritists. Hosea 4:12 My people consult their wooden idol, and their [diviner] wand informs them; For a spirit of harlotry has led [them] astray, And they have played the harlot, [departing] from their God. Galatians 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
The Pharisees, as well as later Rabbinical writings falsely attributed the powers of Jesus to sorcery and magic. Magic and sorcery are dependant upon the 'special practitioners' wisdom or abilities, hence a craft or art. A simpler form would be to take an 'special object' that is assumed to have special powers or attributes, and use either the 'practitioners' powers or the 'objects' powers, to invoke, clairvoancy, spells, fortune etc. The big difference is that God demands His people to put no trust in men, objects, spells, or formulas. (Good living is a formula for success, but even God warns us not to trust in our own behavior or wisdom, for His ways and His thoughts will prevail over anything we do. It rains on the good and the bad, and only 'His' will be done, not ours as is the desire of witchcraft, a good definition; 'wish' craft)
Peepstones, gazing into a hat, crystal gazing, divining rods, are all objects of Mediums and sorcery. All of which Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery had and used 'before' during 'and after' finding and translating the golden plates. God does not guide the rod or the peep stone. Sorcery is what you are engaged when you use seer stones and divining rods, Although the wording has interestingly been altered from the original 'Book of Commandments' scriptures', Joseph trys to acredit Olivers diving rod powers to God in D&C (8:6-7). "...for you have another gift, which is the gift of working with the rod, behold it has told you things, behold there is no other power save God, that can cause this rod of nature, to work in your hands" (If you compare this passage of Josephs with the current D&C you will notice that the words "working with the rod" and "rod of nature" have been entirely deleted from this revelation, and the word 'Aaron' added)
In fact in '1836' Joseph Smith received a revelation concerning another treasure hunt, which is still published in the Doctrine and Covenants, Chap. 111: "I, the Lord your God, am not displeased with your coming this journey, notwithstanding your follies. I have much treasure in this city for you,... and its wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours. Concern not yourselves about your debts, for I will give you power to pay them. ...inquire diligently concerning the more ancient inhabitants and founders of this city; For there are more treasure than one for you in this city" (Doctrine and Covenants, 111:1, 2, 4, 9, 10) All these men went to of all places 'Salem, Massachusetts' to seek some treasure they had heard been buried in the ground, do you really think God would send his prophet to 'Salem' to dig for buried gold? And then to never find it, your not going to tell me they recieved 'spiritual treasure', are you.

The God of the Hebrews severly condemns Sorcery, divining and magic practices throughout scripture. The magicians of Pharoahs court, Jezebel, Manasseh, Simon the magician, etc., all are condemned. Gods Word goes into exhaustive detail and effort to show that it is not by mans effort or wisdom, as is sorcery, it is when God is called upon and trusted in for guidance, that truth comes. Those that seek 'Him' in Spirit and truth. Moses allready had been spoken to by God, the staff was a common object carried by many shepherds and people in the wilderness, for livestock, for walking, a wilderness weapon. The staff was not a diving rod, neither was aarons rod.The staff miracle was one of 'many', miracles shown to Moses, as was his hand turning leprous, then the water turning to blood, frogs, flies, locusts all these things were done by God as direct insults and challanges to the sorcery, magic and creature worship of the Egyptians. Moses himself attributes all power unto God and recieves no credit for personal abilities or power to objects such as a staff. The staff was no more a source of divining than the lampstand, the showbread, or the Ark itself. The staff of Aaron was a memorial, a witness (As Jacobs pile of stones) to Gods working. The two stones on the breastplate that Aaron wore were a 'memorial' to Gods judgements (Exodus 28:12 "You shall put the two stones on the shoulder pieces of the ephod, [as] stones of memorial for the sons of Israel, and Aaron shall bear their names before the LORD on his two shoulders for a memorial) A reminder to the Holiness of God and His guidance over the heart of of Aaron (Ex.28:30) The choosing and making of the garmets and breastplate of Aaron fills a whole chapter of Exodus and comes directly from Gods mouth to Moses and is constructed and made in accordance with Gods direct words. As was the tabernacle, screen, bronze alter etc. Joseph found his seer stone while digging in a hole for gold, and Olivers rod was a rod used 'for the purpose of divining'. Niether had a divine order to use such common objects and both objects were being at the time used for money digging, a little different than Moses and Aaron. It does not fit that God who equates mediums and diviners with Demons and witchcraft, to use such a person to restore revelation and truth. Especially after condemning practicioners of such among His people to death. There is so many verses condemning participation in sorcery, because it is the art of communing with demons, and many recieve revelation and messages in this way, just as Mannaseh;
2 Kings 21:6 He made his son pass through the fire, practiced witchcraft and used divination, and dealt with mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD provoking. Revelation 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." So how can you trust the Book of Mormon? Joseph Smith carried a 'Jupiter tailsman during his time as 'prophet'', it was even on his person at his death as Emma has testified.

I agree with you 100 percent that witchcraft, divination, and sorcery and magic are damnable sins. The Book of Mormon and D & C and the angel Moroni are also in agreement with that.

What source documents can you provide to back up your claim about Joseph Smiths use of a Jupiter Talisman? I don't ask that to be rude or accuse you of fabricating a story. I have looked into it in the past so I know there are some reasons why people believe he did but I didn't find any of the sources to be credible. I want you to know that I appreciate you taking time to talk with me and am certainly more than willing to look into it again. I would find it difficult to harmonize Joseph Smith's involvement in magic with his calling as prophet if he never repented of it.

Let me know what you can find. I have been searching the internet as well but can't find any accounts from Emma to back up this claim, the only account I can find is of her adopted son who was 15 when she died, who was never affiliated with the LDS church as far as I can tell, and who was trying to make money by selling items that he claimed were Joseph Smiths over 50 years after Emma had passed away. His testimony of what Joseph had on him at his death contradicts the legal documents made by the attorney who inspected his body at his death listing what Joseph had on him when he was killed. As far as I can tell, there are also no accounts by any first hand witnesses of Joseph Smith using this Jupiter Talisman. I of course haven't read all there is to be read on the subject though and am interested in learning more.

I possess a nice collection of reference materials 'in storage' now while I finish remodeling our home, my 'memory' says I've seen enough evidence. I have researched 'alot' of these claims and manuscripts, I even went to Utah in search of books and information. But I found Utah Lighthouse ministry is a 'lighthouse' of resources they are credible and honest. There is some more info. than I can locate now on Josephs 'Tailsman' medallion but this address by Reed Durham is real, and hard to dispute; this is from Utah lighthose ministrys online resources;
Dr. Reed Durham, who was director of the LDS Institute of Religion at the University of Utah and president of the Mormon History Association. Dr. Durham, apparently not realizing the devastating implications of his discovery, announced this important find in his presidential address before the Mormon History Association on April 20, 1974; ...All available evidence suggests that Joseph Smith the Prophet possessed a magical Masonic medallion, or talisman, which he worked during his lifetime and which was evidently on his person when he was martyred...(Mormon Miscellaneous, published by David C. Martin, vol. 1, no. 1, October 1975, pp. 14-15).
I think there is more than enough evidence that Joseph was very involved in the clearly decietful practice of money digging, that is taking some poor saps money and 'pretending' to be able to divine buried treasure on their property. I would think Joseph was 'simply pretending' without the use of divining but his use of peepstones also seems to indicate a strong belief in being 'led by these objects'. Oliver, Martin Harris, Pratt and others in Josephs company also were involved in divining and money digging. Joseph was arrested and tried for money digging in 1826. 'Moses and Paul' were not involved with the occult, or 'deceit for gain' enterprises. Paul and Moses zeal for God caused them to go to far, and commit murder, yet it seems that it was 'because' of their zeal that God choose them, not despite it. The 'main objective' of the occult is to 'decieve', to give false messages, horoscopes, palm readers, crystal balls, etc.,are used as 'mediums' to demonic messages. Why would 'God' break His own Law to (supposedly) reinstall His own Law? Would God be guilty of seeking a medium? For God has said; As for the person who turns to mediums and to spiritists, to play the harlot after them, I will also set My face against that person and will cut him off from among his people. You shall consecrate yourselves therefore and be holy, for I am the LORD your God. (Leviticus 20:6)

Because this topic in my view deserves its own thread I just started another one and have replied there titled Joseph Smith, Money digging and the Occult.