Inerrancy/inspiration of the Bible

[Guest]

Hi Jim.

Myself, I'm not and most likely never will be interested in philosophy, a-la Kirkegaard or any other sort. My beliefs are mainly geared towards practical application. Therefore, since understanding things according to greatest likelihoods is more practical to me than debating whether something can be entirely objectively known, I'll stick with that.

And by the way, after having studied physics, astronomy, biology, and many other subjects throughout the course of my life, and after having spent a great deal of time and effort investigating history, cultural symbolism and comparative religion, I've come to the conclusion that it's a virtual statistical certainty that not only does God exist, but that that God is the God of the bible. To me, the reasoning which leads to this conclusion is inescapable.

Damon

[Guest]

Yesterday, some friends and I were making a joyful noise and some religious jewish people became enraged - I think they were attempting to stir up the passers-by against the gospel. As we left the area, one of the religious men followed us, he might have been pumping us for information (what organization are you with, who is your leader, etc).

After speaking with the fellow for a few minutes, he disclosed that he had read the New Testament. He then told me that this had raised questions, and asked God if Jesus was the Messiah. He suggested that the following night he had dreamed that he saw Jesus engulfed in flames, and that he understood this to be a bad thing. This was the reason that he cited for dismissing the evidence contained within the book, and further dedicate his life to preventing 'missionary' efforts to share the gospel with jewish people.

Evidently, this fellow was also assessing the veracity of the New Testament based on his subjective condition. Presumably, he'd already swallowed enough of the poison of rabbinic judaism to further deceive his natural (carnal) bias against the truth.

We'd planned to meet again for a few hours. If I have nothing to offer him but subjective revelations - it may be best to skip the meeting. Though thankfully I'm given a personal testimony to share, this fellow may need to be compelled by the internal consistency sustained between the Old and New Testaments. Jesus Christ being witnessed by the law and the prophets is weighty evidence - considering His timing, location, lineage, Name, sufferings, fulfilling the law etc. - not to mention His personal prophetic utterances foretelling the judgment to hit Jerusalem shortly after his ascension.

For what it might be worth - it's interesting that even talmudic references, more likely to be disposed toward subverting His testimony, serve to confirm that Jesus (though the "rabbi's" use a different name) was condemned to death at the hands of religious jews who recognized that miracles were performed at His hands.

Hope this post was not a distraction from the topic, the topic seemed timely to me.

sd

[Guest]

Interesting!

For your Jewish friend, I would ask them, "What is the purpose of the Law? What's it for?"

The biblical answer is, "So that we might live and prosper." (Lev. 18:5; Deut. 4:1, 5:33; etc.)

Once he agrees with that, then ask him this question. "Are you living life abundantly and prospering?"

Most likely, your answer will be no. But if it's yes, then ask, "What about those around you - including your enemies? Are they?" (Ex. 23:4-5; Ps. 7:1-5; etc.) That's almost certain to be a no.

Then say, "Then the Law isn't accomplishing what God declared that it was supposed to accomplish. (You still have enemies you hate you and keep you from prospering, and they hate you because they aren't prospering.) So what's the answer?"

The proper answer, even according to the Jews, is, "The Messiah."

"Right!" you'd answer. "But how so?"

"Because the Messiah will defeat all of my enemies and cause me to dwell in peace, so that I might live and prosper," he'd say.

"Again, right! But who is the Messiah? Who is qualified to be the Messiah?"

The correct answer is, only one who can defeat evil both outwardly and inwardly. Whether your Jewish friend knows that or not, that's your opening to talk about Jesus as the Messiah.

Fun, innit?

Damon

[Guest]

Steve is quite correct about the source of our knowledge about most everything. We believe what we read or are told by faith, based on the trustworthiness of our source. When told that antifreeze is poison, do you believe the testimony or do you drink some to find out? We live our lives in the secular sense by faith, why should it be otherwise in religion?

[Guest]

...this fellow may need to be compelled by the internal consistency sustained between the Old and New Testaments.

Best wishes, if you can persuade him that there is such a consistency.
If he is familiar with the Old Testament statement, "Out of Egypt have I called my son",he will know that this is a reference to Israel coming out of Egypt. So how are you going to explain to him that the statement is used in one of the gospels as a prophecy that Mary and Joseph fled with Jesus to Egypt, and later came "out of Egypt".

When told that antifreeze is poison, do you believe the testimony or do you drink some to find out? We live our lives in the secular sense by faith, why should it be otherwise in religion?

Because knowing where we will appear in the next life is so much more important than knowing that antifreeze is poison!

We believe what we read or are told by faith, based on the trustworthiness of our source.

Consider the following true story. A teacher told her class of a tribe of people who lived on a remote island. She pointed out on a map where the island was located. She told them that the people were mean, dirty, lazy, and used many even more negative terms to describe them. By this means, she actually taught the pupils to hate the tribe.

As it turns out, it was all a sociological experiment. The island and the tribe did not exist!

If a teacher is not a trustworthy source, who can we beleive? Even trustworthy sources sometimes fail us.

Scientists tell us that there is an infinite regression of time into the past.

I believe that time actually had a beginning, that the phrase "in the beginning" (Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1) actually refers to the beginning of time, and that were no events before this (because there was no "before").

Scientist tell us that all life evolved from a simple cell or cells that "appeared" in the sea.

I believe that "God created the heavens and the earth and all that in them is."

No. The "trustworthy sources" are not always worthy of our trust.

[Guest]

"Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." - Messiah. Objective proof we are not going to get (at least not most of us). One definition of faith is "belief of testimony". As Francis Schaeffer liked to say, belief is when we stop calling God a liar. I'm afraid we're stuck with this!

[Guest]

John 20:26-29
Eight days later, his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. The doors were shut, but Jesus came and stood among them, and said, "Peace be with you."

Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing."

Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe."

Yes, blessed are those who believe that Jesus was raised from the dead without have seen the resurrected Lord!

But nowhere are we promised blessing if we believe that the Bible (a group of writings which were not put together in its present form until the fourth century) is the exclusively inspired, infallible, and inerrant word of God.

[Guest]

I have really enjoyed reading this thread.

Jim, I don't know if you're still following this or not, but thanks for posing the question. Steve, in my opinion, has given as thorough of an answer to your question that I think could be given.

You are right that when it comes right down to it, it's a matter of faith, faith in the evidence God has given us. True, it's not empirical evidence, but it's good evidence and reliable evidence. The evidence for the reliability of the Bible (both internal and external) is very compelling, even from a strictly academic standpoint.

I find it interesting that God has purposed to leave it up to the individual whether to trust the evidence that He has given (What a wonderfully loving thing for Him to do!) It's also interesting that belief seems to come easier for some than others. For those who believe, no proof is necessary (like Rahab). But for those that won't believe, no proof is enough (like the Pharisees that saw the miracles of Jesus and attributed it to the devil in Matt 12). Paul said of these people that the gospel is foolishness to them (1 Cor 1:18 ).

Damon was right that it is a matter of the heart. God gives us sufficient evidence and then supernaturally testifies in our hearts that He and His Word are true. Each one of us has the choice of trusting that testimony or not. I can remember before I was a believer thinking that the Bible seemed to be way too outlandish to be true, but for some reason I had this nagging, unshakable feeling that it was indeed true. And with very little evidence, decided in my heart that it was true and that I needed to trust that it was. I'm a doubting Thomas by nature and that decision went against the grain of that nature. But I was still as sure as anything that it was true.

Paul said that man is able to suppress the truth that God places in our hearts (Romans 1:18-22). Judging by your obvious well researched knowledge of Christianity, it seems that you are either seeking the truth or seeking justification not to believe it. My prayer is that you find the former. I suspect that it may take a "Damascus road" experience for you to come to faith (Acts 9). But even that is "subjective", Paul could have easily attributed his experience to a demon or halucination if he really wanted to suppress the truth bad enough. What made him decide to call the bright light "Lord"?

Paul also claims that everyone will eventually know (not merely believe) that Jesus Christ is Lord (Rom 14:11). For those of us who want an eternal relationship with the God who loves our souls, we will lean on our hope and faith (though not a blind faith by any means). For those that would rather worship the temporal idol of the senses, they will continue to resist God's love and truth to their ultimate destruction.

God will honor the motives of your search either way. If you're honestly seeking the truth, He says you will find it (Matt 7:7). If you're seeking life apart from God, He'll honor that wish also (Rom 1:28 ) . I pray you find the former.

God Bless.

[Guest]

Guest, If you're still there give your orthodox jewish friend the evidence for the resurrection. They believe in a resurrection and focusing on that event bypasses a ton of apologetics and cuts to the chase.