Intercessory Prayer

[Guest]

Nice to have you available in forum mode, Steve. You are going to be one busy guy!

This one has been nagging me for some time and perhaps you can help. I hear many people pray for the salvation of relatives, friends, enemies, etc. and I wonder, what is the validity of such requests? I can't recall seeing this kind of intercessory prayer in Scripture.

[_Steve]

Hi Joe,
No, don't suppose there is a specific example of this exact type of prayer in Scripture. This factor is not decisive, though, since a relatively limited number of prayers are actually recorded in Scripture (in comparison to the number of prayers that were actually prayed day-by-day by all the characters in the Bible).

In general, if we are among those who believe that God desires all people to be saved (and I am one of those who believe this—1 Tim.2:4), and if we see that we are authorized to pray for anything that falls within the range of God's will (1 John 5:14), then praying for the salvation of the lost would seem to be a legitimate practice.

The snag here, of course, is the matter of "free will" on the part of the particular unbeliever that we may be praying for! Can God, in answer to any number of prayers, actually force someone to repent and believe against their will? I am not among those who believe that God will do this.

On the other hand, God has at His disposal a wide variety of "meat grinders" which He has sometimes been known to use in order to help a stubborn rebel to come to his senses and "reconsider" his position (Jonah comes to mind), as well as the option of dramatically revealing Himself (as with Saul of Tarsus), so that He seems to be almost making the unbeliever "an offer he cannot refuse"—almost!

Through various sovereign dealings that are well within the range of God's options (e.g., providential disasters, conviction of sin, the softening influence of a near-death experience, exposure to a truly Christlike believer, etc.), I believe that God can bring the sinner to the very threshhold of repentance. Thus, if I pray for the salvation of a particular unbeliever, I do so with the faith that God may deploy His entire arsenal in an effort to conquer the recalcitrant, and yet the final decision, which rests with the individual under such dealings, may not be wisely made, and the person may yet be lost. But I have great confidence in Gods' sense of timing and His finesse at applying thumb-screws. Therefore, I believe prayer in such cases is neither inappropriate nor fruitless.

[Guest]

Steve,

>don't suppose there is a specific example of this exact type of prayer in Scripture. This factor is not decisive, though<

Thanks! I'm relieved to know that I hadn't missed something plain. If you don't see it ... well, it isn't there. And although you don't consider it decisive, I'm generally concerned about an attitude or practice that doesn't have a clear model in the Scriptures. Having received assurance that I haven't overlooked something obvious let me press on about the more fundamental problem of intercessory prayer in general.

Although the first mention of the word "pray" or "prayer" concerns intercession, where God heals king Abimelech's family through the prayer of Abraham, I am unsettled about the application of this type of prayer. The scriptures are replete with admonitions and injunctions to pray, and clearly intercessory prayer is among them. My problem is at the intersection of notions that, a) God is omniscient, omnipotent and perfect in all things, and, b) man is quite the opposite. And intercessory prayer seems to contain the element of man moving God. Although we introduce the caveat of interceding in conformity with God's will, nevertheless the implication is that God will not do .... whatever .... unless man asks.

It's the, on the one hand ... but on the other hand, reasoning that you presented which prevents me from being certain of what I'm supposed to do to be in conformity with God's will in these situations. As you pointed out, God has ample persuasive power to bring one to the brink of acceptance, but does He require human assistance to use those powers? Since He does not wish anyone to perish, will He not do all He can, short of removing the gift of free will, to assist the individual toward acceptance, on His own? Like you >I have great confidence in Gods' sense of timing and His finesse at applying thumb-screws< however I have some skepticism regarding the need for man to "help".

The above has been in reference to an individual's salvation, but my reasoning encompasses all intercessory prayer. There is a struggle within me that says on the one hand, scripture clearly makes the call to pray for people and situations, but on the other hand (there are those two hands again) it is equally clear that God is above all and His will is supreme. If I ask God to move a mountain into the sea, thinking I have the faith to do so, and it's not His desire, the mountain remains and I have misunderstood His will in that situation. Would it have been better to just leave the mountain to God to do with as He would (a path I am inclinded to follow), or would the better choice be to obey the instruction of Scripture and leave the outcome to God? As I said, I am prone to prefer the former, but you and others teach the latter. Where am I going wrong?

[_Steve]

Hi Joe,
First, I must apologize for overlooking, in my previous response, a very obvious passage that seems to authorize and command us to pray for the souls of others. That verse is 1 John 5:16, which follows immediately after the classic verses about the confidence to be had in praying "according to His will". We are told to pray for people who have sinned (though not for those who have sinned fatally) so that God will grant them life. This seems to be a direct statement in answer to your original question, and I was remiss not to think of it when giving my earlier response.

It sounds like you have multiple related questions about the legitimacy, efficacy and necessity of prayer—and not just of intercessory prayer, as you first mentioned, but of all petitionary prayer. These are common questions among thinking people, and, to make sure I grasp where you are coming from, I would summarize what I understand to be your main concerns:
1. Does prayer really change anything?
2. Why should it? God knows better what ought to be done than we do!
3. If only prayers that agree with God's will are to be answered anyway, why wouldn't God just proceed with His plan without our meddling?
4. If God really won't answer prayers that aren't agreeable with His will, and since I don't always know His will, what am I entitled to expect as a result of my praying?

Again these are good questions, and I will make a feeble attempt to give answers according to my limited understanding. There is one question (the one that matters most) to which you seem already to know the answer: "Does God want us to pray?" You acknowledge that the Bible is replete with exhortations for us to do so, and, whether we can obtain satisfying answers to the other questions or not, our duty would, nonetheless, seem clear enough. Assuming God to be intelligent and purposeful in all that He does and all that He commands, it would follow that there must be good answers to your questions, whether we can discover them or not.

These are my best attempts to answer the questions you posed:

1. "Does prayer change anything?" it seems that we receive a clear answer in James 4:2—"You do not have because you do not ask." If words mean anything, James must be saying that circumstances exist which would have been different had prayer been offered—that is, prayer would have changed something. This is certainly implied in many other other passages as well, e.g., Matt.7:7; Mark 11:24; LUKE 18:1-8; John 16:23, etc.

2 & 3. "Why should God let our prayers affect anything, given our inferiority to Him?" and "Why doesn't God just do what He wants without our often-ill-conceived advice?" This probably has something to do with His desire to hand-off a measured amount of responsibility to His heirs, with whom He ultimately intends to share the task of ruling the universe for eternity. Why He would wish to do such a thing is beyond me, but this motive seems to lie at the core of His original decision to create rational, morally responsible creatures in the first place. Whether with God this was a spontaneous, whimsical wish or a profoundly non-negotiable, eternal purpose, it seems nonetheless to have motivated Him to create "sons" who could inherit "the family business."

I don't know what it is in many men that would make them inherently unfulfilled if they were to die without an heir (Abraham, we recall, was bothered by this prospect—Gen.15:2). Henry VIII went through a series of wives, hoping that, from one or another, he would finally obtain a male heir to his throne. This urge in men may be an echo of a corresponding desire in God (we are, after all, made in His image, and may, by nature, share some of His sentiments). The same urge that a man feels when he desires to include his sons in the ongoing conduct of the family business may also reside in the heart of God with reference to the future of His universe.

Remember that God's sharing with man the dignity of causation raises the same questions and objections, whether it is done through His giving man the privilege of praying or through His merely giving man the ability to accomplish anything through physical effort. At least in the former, God reserves a direct right of veto! Giving little men (but good men) a role in governing and directing the affairs of God's kingdom—whether by prayer or by their labors—seems inherently risky, and must have been called-for as the necessary means by which God intended to accomplish certain objectives which could not be obtained by means involving less risk.

4. "If I don't know that God wills to answer a particular prayer of mine, what am I entitled to expect in praying?" I think the same thing that a child is entitled to expect from his father. Children often can develop an instinct as to which requests are likely to meet with their father's approval and which will not...and the more so as they mature and better understand their father's mind and character. They also know that every request might not be granted. Ideally, a child offers his request to his father knowing that even earthly fathers "know how to give good gifts" to their children, and expects his father to do so, unless there is some overriding factor unknown to the child that would prevent the father from being able to grant the request. In the case where a request is denied, the child (hopefully) can trust the father's wisdom and sympathy, and can accept that the denial is in the best interests of the whole family.

[Guest]

Steve,

>It sounds like you have multiple related questions about the legitimacy, efficacy and necessity of prayer< That is true, but the type of prayer I have most difficulty with is intercessory. On the opposite end is prayer relating to my own personal needs and feelings. Talking (praying) to God as a father or supreme being about things relating to me alone doesn't seem to have the same tension as issues concerning things outside of myself.

Of course I must agree with you concerning your examples of how prayer is explained in the scriptures. However they impress me as the "on the one hand" examples, and I am confused by the "on the other hand" examples, which I will attempt to give you at another time. For now I'd like to pursue your inclusion of 1 John 5:16.

I have always understood that verse to be speaking of one who had previously accepted the Lordship of Jesus. My original inquiry was about praying for salvation for those outside of the Church. Although they both entail intercessory prayer, it seems less likely that God would "force" someone into the Church than "rebuke" someone already there. And I'll be quick to admit that the entire passage is a bit confusing and I may be misunderstand the dialog entirely.

Nevertheless, would you mind elaborating a bit on why you see 1 John 5:16 as supporting prayer to bring unbelievers into salvation?

[_Steve]

Hi Joe,
My reason for giving 1 John 5:16 as a verse about intercessory prayer for the lost is that it says that, as the result of such prayer, God "will give him life"—suggesting to my mind that "life" was absent from and desperately needed by the party for whom the prayer was offered. Though the person is said to have been a "brother" previously, this apparently either means in the sense of "fellow member of the human family," or (as seems more likely to me), that the sinning brother is regarded as an apostate and is no longer in possession of eternal life.

You are correct that the verse is difficult, and it has been interpreted differently by most commentators than what I believe to be its plainer meaning. The commentators say that the "sin unto death" is a reference to some unpardonable sin, which will, once committed, inevitably result in damnation, and there is no sense in praying for a person who has committed that sin. I have two difficulties with this popular explanation:

1) Since John does not identify this sin in any specific terms, how am I to know what it is, or whether a man has committed it—things I would need to know in order to decide whether or not to pray for him? and

2) If John believed that there is an unpardonable sin, why did he assure us earlier that the blood of Jesus "cleanses us from ALL sin," and that, if we confess our sins, we will be cleansed "from ALL unrighteousness"—giving no indication of any exceptions (1 John 1:7, 9)?

I think a more natural understanding of the expression "unto death" would mean "until the end of the natural life, when death has occurred" (as in the expression, "Be faithful unto death"—Rev.2:10). If I am correct, then John's meaning could be paraphrased as follows:

"If you see your brother sinning, he is obviously still alive and has not, therefore, sinned 'unto death.' Pray for him to be restored to life in Christ. Of course, some people have sinned their life away, and have already died in their sins (they have "sinned unto death"), there is no sense in praying for them to be saved. They have no further opportunity."

Thus the verse would seem relevant to the question of purgatory and of praying for the dead (e.g., as in Roman Catholicism).

Good chatting with you again!

[Guest]

Steve,

Thanks again for your response!

As an aside ... how do you produce your replies? I'm amazed at the quantity of information you present in text form. On the radio and in a school setting you speak lavishly, but to sit down at a word processor and compose lengthy and grammatically correct replies seems to take a lot of time. Do you type these things manually, or do you have some kind of program that converts the spoken word into text? It took me about five minutes just to type this.

Getting back to the subject at hand ... I understand your reasoning and you may be absolutely correct regarding 1 John 5:16. At the risk of following a rabbit trail and getting away from the original path (although I think the trail is related), I'd like to follow up a bit on your interpretation.

According to what I hear you saying, when you see a "brother" commit sin and continue to live, your prayer will "for him give life" (emphasis on "will"). Is this a reality in your life? Each time you see a spiritual brother/sister commit such sin, do you pray, and as a result the brother/sister has, without doubt, been restored to "life"?

I don't mean to pose the question as a challenge, or "put you on the spot", but it's the type of questions I ask myself about these sorts of biblical instructions. I know you to be a man of integrity and generosity and hope that I can ask such things without causing you discomfort. It might be of help to hear how you partake of this scriptural enjoiner.

[Guest]

Steve,

Getting back to the initial dialog (without waiting for your reply concerning the rabbit trail question).... when you address, "Does prayer really change anything?", my thoughts go to the prayer of Jesus prior to His crucifixion (John 17). Regarding intercession, Jesus as fully God and fully man surely must have desired all men to come to salvation, yet seemed to acknowledge free will when he prayed "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word ..." Could He not have asked for all mankind rather than just "those also who believe"? If Jesus did not pray unbelievers into the Kingdom, how can we?

Further, when He asked "...that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me." I would ask, has this request of Jesus been granted? Does the world know that the Father has sent Jesus?

In my own experience, and observation of others, it seems that some prayers of intercession are granted, some not. I, like many, fall back on "God's will" when nothing seems to change. To the question of, does prayer change things, I would have to truthfully reply, (notwithstanding the verses you mentioned) .... sometimes, but don't ask me to predict the outcome. However, when it comes to prayer for salvation, I'm still not convinced that it is a legitimate request.

Your explanation of why God would include man in His governance of the earth makes sense, and is something I have considered. However the many scriptures that speak of God's complete sovereignty overwhelms the notion of shared responsibility. I'm going to have to consider this with more intensity.

When you (or anyone) makes a comparison of God as father to an earthly father I get a bit nervous. Even the reference Jesus makes to earthly fathers contains the term " if you then being evil", so I have a difficult time comparing the two unless God is the model, not the other way around. But I understand your reasoning and you may be right.

I think my problem with most prayer, praise and thanksgiving being exceptions, is disappointment in the results of applied instruction. When I read, for instance in Matthew 18:19 where Jesus says, "...if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.", I want to take that literally. However experience shows that more than likely it will not be granted. This is the usual experience, but of course there are times (infrequent by comparison) when these requests are approved. As you said, one learns what, when and how to ask, and it seems that I have decided God does nicely without me. There are times when I know I must pray, and I assume that God is giving me the nudge ... but for the most part I stay out of His way. This, obviously, is not a practice I'm totally comfortable with, but I think it pretty much describes where I am regarding prayers of petition.

[Guest]

Hi Joe,

A couple thoughts come to mind as I read your comments and questions. A friend of my family's prayed for all of us for 35 years before any of us became believers. Today at church, a couple shared how they had prayed for a man who lived with them for six months, four years ago. He's now in prison and through an amazing series of "coincidences," they found out about it and about a chaplain who could meet with their friend this past week. He gave his life to the Lord and is prepared to continue his faith throughout his prison term.

It seems like it's hard to know when the answers to our prayers might come.

Blessings,
Lin

[Guest]

Lin,

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. I'm rather reluctant to discuss this issue with folks I don't know ... that is, I'm not sure how strong you are in your faith, and I don't want to cause someone to stumble. However, being on this forum does expose me to this danger and I suppose I will just have to "take my chances".

I'm happy that your family, as well as the man in prison, have come to a saving faith in Jesus, and I would not for a moment discourage anyone from praying as their conscience dictates. You must be very grateful that a friend cares so much.

My own struggle with prayers of intercession, especially regarding salvation, springs from a study of the Christian Bible coupled with (some would say, cursed with) a tendency to apply logic and the desire to "make sense" of what I read. Some folks can read the scriptures and claim to be at peace with it ... the Bible says xyz and that's good enough for me .... but I see a complex set of propositions that takes time and analysis to properly understand. And for me, intercessory prayer is one of those issues. Maybe for you it is not, and I'm glad for you.

I assume you were one of the family members about which you spoke, who, due to a friend praying for many years, came into salvation. My questions to you might include .... do you think God would not have done whatever He did to move you into acceptance, without the prayers of this friend?

I'll let you respond if you wish, and we can go from there.

God bless!