The "Cost" of Forgiveness

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The "Cost" of Forgiveness

Post by _Anonymous » Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:27 pm

In another thread Homer posted these statements:
To my mind, forgiving always entails a cost for the forgiving party. If this is true, how would one internalize this cost? By doing penance or something?
There is a "cost" in forgiving in that the Christian is forbidden from taking revenge in any way. The Christian must give up not only the actual revenge, but also any thoughts of revenge. The "flesh" takes great pleasure in revenge and in fantasizing about "getting even".
Does forgiveness have to involve the struggle to overcome feelings of revenge?

I am by nature a sort of easy going person who doesn't even have thoughts of revenge very often. If I can only be forgiven to the extent that I'm able to overcome - at a cost, no less - feelings that I don't experience in order to truly forgive others, I'm in trouble.

This used to bother me a lot. Then I listened to Steve's teaching about not taking offense. He speaks about not being offended in the first place, even if a person means to be harmful to you. In my mind, that's a form of forgiveness as well, but I don't think it would always involve the struggle to give up thoughts of revenge. Sometimes it happens in an instant, before your mind is able to mull over sadistic ways of exacting justice.
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Post by _TK » Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:25 pm

hi michelle--

i am very like you-- i have never been a person to hold grudges, and i don't get offended easily, sometimes to the irritation of my family or friends(who sometimes think i should be more offended than i am over certain things). further, i guess no one has ever hurt me very very badly, at least to the extent that forgiveness would be difficult. of course i consider this a blessing.

this is obviously an area where some people struggle more than others; some people are naturally defensive (and therefore easily offended) and may find it harder to forgive, or have been hurt very badly by others. Homer mentioned "fantasizing" about taking revenge, which i agree would be inappropriate. but i think brief thoughts of anger or revenge would be natural, even for a Christian, but the key is overcoming them quickly and not allowing them to fester to the point of bitterness or hatred.

i agree with Homer that the "cost" of forgiveness is essentially having to eat a large helping of humble pie, because in foregoing revenge (or our "right" not to forgive by holding a grudge) we are essentially dying to our self. also, forgiveness seems to be a "grace" that we give to those who wrong us, because they certainly dont deserve it (but are still owed it by the Christian).

TK
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Post by _Homer » Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:27 am

Michelle,

Imagine that you were raising some chickens. You notice that every few days a chicken is missing. You suspect that raccoons may be getting them. One night you hear a noise out at the chicken pen. You grab a broom and a flashlight and approach the chicken pen. You are surprised to find the teen aged son of a poor widow. He says he is sorry, but his family has been hungry. You have mercy and forgive him. You do not call the police; to the contrary you inform him you will bring more food to his home the next day.

Being a Christian, mercy and forgiveness came easy to you. And you had no thought of calling the police and seeking justice. But you are still out some chickens! There was a cost involved although you gave no thought to it.

When God forgave us it cost Him something - the suffering of The Son.

Under Christ, things are different than under Moses, where an injury allowed revenge; it just couldn't be excessive ("an eye for an eye").

Blessings, Homer
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Post by _Anonymous » Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:33 am

Hi Homer,

Thanks for answering. That was a good illustration. So, if I understand what you are saying, it's not how difficult it is, nor how fast you are at forgiving, there still is a "cost."

A few years ago I sat through a sermon on forgiveness and it sent me reeling, although probably not the way the pastor had in mind. The point of the sermon seemed to be that everyone has people they need to forgive, that's just the way life works. Hanging on to the past and all the pain isn't good for you and besides that, it interferes with the forgiveness you need from God. Then they lowered the lights and the band began to play quietly while everyone bowed their heads to pray about the people they have refused to forgive. People began to move toward the front of the auditorium to kneel and pray, some of them weeping. It seemed like they were receiving a big blessing.

For the life of me I couldn't think of who to forgive. That made me think that maybe I was so unforgiving that it was just a way of life for me and I couldn't even hear the Spirit's prompting about who I should forgive. In other words, because I didn't harbor bitterness or have fantasies of revenge, I thought I was having a problem with forgiveness. (Hmm, could that have been deception from the enemy?)

The idea didn't leave me. Then I started to worry that I hadn't suffered enough and that God would be bringing me difficult situations so that I could practice forgiveness. I sort of got it into my head that there was a balance scale of forgiveness and you had to forgive equal to the forgiveness you needed. Well, I need a lot of forgiveness and so I thought I needed to forgive a lot. It was a little frightening thinking that God was going to lower the boom at any moment.

I'm sorry for getting so autobiographical. Your post in the other thread just reminded me of the whole struggle. You are right, forgiveness isn't free, it just might be easy sometimes. Thanks again for taking time to reply to my question.
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Post by _Anonymous » Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:35 am

TK wrote:i am very like you-- i have never been a person to hold grudges, and i don't get offended easily, sometimes to the irritation of my family or friends(who sometimes think i should be more offended than i am over certain things). further, i guess no one has ever hurt me very very badly, at least to the extent that forgiveness would be difficult. of course i consider this a blessing.
I know what you mean about family and friends being irritated. That happens to me sometimes, too.
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Post by _Paidion » Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:47 pm

True, when you became a disciple of Christ, God did not hold your former sins against you in any way. But that is not the reason Christ died. He did not die to forgive you of your sin. His death was not for the forgiveness of sin, but for the forsaking of sin. Forgiveness cost God nothing. What cost Jesus His life was to provide a way for us to overcome sin, and to live righteously.

1 Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.[of your sin-sickness]

The Greek word "aphesis", which was translated as "forgiveness" means "leaving" in its root meaning. This is usually its meaning when it is combined with "hamartia" [sin].

In some translations you read:

Mark 1:4 John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Now read the account of what John the Baptizer taught, and see if he ever said anything about the forgiveness of sin! He didn't. He preached a baptism of repentance for the forsaking of sins.
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Post by _Homer » Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:06 am

Paidion,

You have tirelessly repeated this:
He did not die to forgive you of your sin. His death was not for the forgiveness of sin, but for the forsaking of sin. Forgiveness cost God nothing. What cost Jesus His life was to provide a way for us to overcome sin, and to live righteously.
Please explain to us, if you can, precisely how Jesus' death was necessary
to help us overcome sin. By what means does Jesus' death assist us in living righteously? I thought that was accomplished by the Holy Spirit? "...if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live."

You place too much confidence in the root meanings of words (known as "the root word fallacy"). Considering the root meanings of words, if you had never seen a butterfly, what might a root word study tell you about the insect?

It is true aphesis might mean leaving or release. It also means forgiveness or remission. What did Jesus mean when He said "For this is My blood of the new covenent, which is shed for many for the remission of sins"? You believe in baptism for the remission of sins. Do you believe when you take Jesus as your savior in baptism that all your sins are forgiven (aphesis; remission) or that leaving sins is meant?

I believe that Jesus died for the forgiveness of our sins and that in this His death is 100% effective. Can you say His death is 100% effective in freeing you (or anyone) from sin?
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Post by _Homer » Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:23 am

Moses Lard makes the point well:

"Christ died in the room or stead of sinners."

That pardon of our sins and our entire salvation is ascribed to the death of Christ is an idea that strikes the mind of every attentive reader of the New Testament, as a fact which will not be questioned. Our salvation is especially and emphatically connected with that wonderful event. “I lay down my life for the sheep.” “He gave himself for us.” “He died the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God.” “Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many.” “While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” “In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our sins.” “We who were afar off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.” “Unto him that loved us and washed us from our sins in his own blood.” The Son of God came, “to give his life a ransom for many.” “Christ died for us.” “Who his own self bear our sins in his own body on the tree.” “Much more being justified by his blood.” “We were reconciled to God by the death of his Son;” with innumerable other passages in which, with equal emphasis, the salvation of man is connected with the death of Christ. Now what can be the meaning of these and such like passages, except that he died in our stead? That this is their meaning, we proceed now to prove. The Scriptures teach us that “he died the just for the unjust.” He suffered for us. He died for all. He tasted death for every man. He died for the ungodly. He gave himself a ransom for all, and such like.

The Greek prepositions translated for in the above passages, though they do not always, yet do frequently, mean instead of. This can not be questioned. Take some examples. “It is expedient that one man should die (huper) for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.” Here plainly the meaning is that either Christ or the nation must perish; and that by putting the former to death, he would die instead of the nation. In Rom. v., 6-8, the sense in which Christ “died for us” is indisputably fixed by the context: “For scarcely for a righteous man will [182] one die, yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die; but God commendeth his love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died (huper) for us.” In this sense is anti also used by the Seventy, 2 Sam. xviii., 33, where David says concerning Absolom: “Would to God I had died for thee.” He could have meant nothing else but to wish he had died instead of Absolom. In the sense of “in the room or stead of,” anti is used also in the New Testament; as, “Archelaus did reign in Judæa (anti) in the room of his father Herod.” “If his son ask a fish, will he (anti) for a fish (instead of a fish) give him a serpent?” When, therefore, the same preposition is used in Mark x., 45, “The Son of man came to give his life a ransom (anti) for many,” it certainly has the same meaning—in the room or stead of.

Under the law, the blood of the slain animal, which was its life, was substituted for the life of the offender. This was typical of the blood of Christ, which made atonement for sinners; “which was shed (peri) for many in order to the remission of sins.”

While the blood or death of Christ was for us, in the sense of in our room or stead, when considered in respect to God, it was designed to expiate sin.

To expiate means “to atone for, to make atonement for.” God said to Moses: “You shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, who is guilty of death; but he shall surely be put to death.” “The land can not be cleansed (expiated) of the blood that is shed therein, but the blood of him that shed it.” (Num. xxxv., 33.) “When he (Christ) had expiated our sins,” or made expiation for them. (Macknight.) “Now once in the end of the ages has he appeared to expiate sin.” “Who his own self bear our sins in his own body on the tree” (1 Peter ii., 24), where the apostle evidently quotes from Isaiah liii.: “He shall bear their iniquities;” “He bore the sins of many.” The same expression is used by the apostle Paul (Heb. ix., 28): “So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many.” Similar to this expression of bearing sins is the declaration of Isaiah in the same chapter: “He was wounded for our trans­gressions, he was bruised for our iniquities;” and then to show in what sense he was wounded and bruised for our [183] trans­gressions, he adds: “The chastisement of our peace was upon him, and with his stripes we are healed.” “All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned every one to his own way, and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all; he was oppressed and he was afflicted.” In 2 Cor. v., 21, the apostle Paul uses almost the same language: “For he hath made him to be sin [a sin-offering] for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” Daniel says: “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon the holy city to restrain the trans­gression, to make an end of sin-offerings—to make a propitiation or reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in an everlasting righteousness.” “Sin-offerings are ended, because reconciliation for iniquity is made, and a justification perfect and complete is brought in.” “Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many.” “He appeared once in the end of the typical ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”

The apostle teaches us in the most explicit manner, in his epistle to the Hebrews, that the sacrifices under the law were expiatory offerings for certain offenses against the common­wealth of Israel, and that they were also typical of the great expiatory sacrifice of Christ. “If the blood of bulls and goats, and the ashes of the heifer, sprinkled upon those who were defiled, made expiation in respect to eternal purity; how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works, to serve the living God.”
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Post by _Paidion » Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:34 pm

Now what can be the meaning of these and such like passages, except that he died in our stead? That this is their meaning, we proceed now to prove.
Homer, what follows in your post is far from a proof. It is an interpretation, probably informed in you over the years from the group(s) with which you associated.

This whole structure must be brought down before the truth of salvation can be proclaimed with understanding. My attempt to do so will take some time. Eventually, I hope to respond.
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Post by _Paidion » Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:40 pm

You have tirelessly repeated this:

Quote:
He did not die to forgive you of your sin. His death was not for the forgiveness of sin, but for the forsaking of sin. Forgiveness cost God nothing. What cost Jesus His life was to provide a way for us to overcome sin, and to live righteously.
Thank you. I hope to go on tirelessly repeating it ---- until it is learned.
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