Salvation: 1 The Formula

Man, Sin, & Salvation
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brody196
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Re: Salvation: 1 The Formula

Post by brody196 » Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:39 pm

Hi guys,

I would like to add my thoughts to this discussion. I have always sought to understand exactly what salvation is and what it entails. I do not claim that I have it all figured out, so I am always eager to learn more.

While I admit that it seems to be a very nuanced subject, the one thing that seems very clear(to me) is that salvation is obtained by grace through faith in Jesus and His work, and that we cannot in any way earn it. I realize that no one here disagrees with this, but it appears that the confusion comes in when discussing the nature of the gift of salvation.

I have observed what appears to be two extremes on this issue: The first is the "greasy grace" message that denies the Lordship of Christ. This belief is common in many of the new "seeker sensitive" movements.

The second is a message that seemingly implies that a believer can never be sure of his salvation and must seek to curry God's favor by living a completely sinless life.

Both of these views seem to miss the mark in my mind. On one hand, personal holiness is something that every Christian should strive for(walking in the Spirit), but these things are done "through the Spirit"(Romans 8:13)

In my opinion, all of the Christian experience is "grace centered", meaning that even the good works that I do are an expression of God's grace.

On another note, I have a question for you Paidion- Do you feel like you have reached the mark of true righteousness? Assuming you don't, what is going to happen to you at death? Do you feel that God is going to send you through "cleansing fires" to purge you? If these questions are to personal, then you will not offend me by not answering. Honestly, I am just curious.

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Paidion
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Re: Salvation: 1 The Formula

Post by Paidion » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:28 am

Do you feel that God is going to send you through "cleansing fires" to purge you?
...everyone will be salted with fire. (Mark 9:49)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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brody196
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Re: Salvation: 1 The Formula

Post by brody196 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:27 am

Paidion wrote:
Do you feel that God is going to send you through "cleansing fires" to purge you?
...everyone will be salted with fire. (Mark 9:49)
Hi Paidion,

Thanks for the quick reply!

I am assuming from your answer that you do not feel like you have attained a completely righteous standing before God, please correct me if I am wrong.

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Paidion
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Re: Salvation: 1 The Formula

Post by Paidion » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:18 pm

What do you mean by "righteous standing"? If you mean some sort of "imputed righteousness" or "white robe of righteousness," so that when God looks at me He doesn't see my sin but Christ's righteousness, then I reply that this is Fundamentalist and Protestant error, a total misrepresentation of salvation. God isn't interested in our having a POSITIONAL righteousness, but only in our possession of ACTUAL righteousness.

If you are asking whether I have yet reached a state of perfection, the answer is "No." I am on the difficult road or "narrow path" which leads to life. As long as I stay on that road, I will be acceptable to God. If I get off that road and merely serve myself, I reverse my initial standing as a disciple of Christ. For He requires that I forsake self-service, and take up my cross daily in order to be His disciple.

But even if I stay on that difficult road, I may have wrong attitudes or sometimes love myself more than my neighbour, or possess many other character defects which God will not tolerate, and therefore must be corrected. Thus I am inclined to think that there is some kind of correction, a "salting with fire" which is needed in order to reach that completeness which God desires. I think this is the case, not only with me, but with all of my beloved brothers and sisters. Some of this salting will probably occur after the resurrection.

Together with the apostle Paul I can say that I am convinced of this, that he who began a good work in me will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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brody196
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Re: Salvation: 1 The Formula

Post by brody196 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:33 pm

What do you mean by "righteous standing"? If you mean some sort of "imputed righteousness" or "white robe of righteousness," so that when God looks at me He doesn't see my sin but Christ's righteousness, then I reply that this is Fundamentalist and Protestant error, a total misrepresentation of salvation. God isn't interested in our having a POSITIONAL righteousness, but only in our possession of ACTUAL righteousness.
So let me get this straight, you don't consider Christ your righteousness? If this is the case, you are not in agreement with Paul, who said "It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption."

What is justification in your understanding? As I see it, Paul seemed to teach that a man is declared righteous upon his faith in Christ. Rom 4:4-5 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,."

Now I understand that this "faith" is a living thing that produces a changed life, so no need to point out that. But the scripture seems to speak of a righteousness that is not our own, rather one that comes from God through faith in Jesus..."And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:" Maybe I am misunderstanding you or something...

If you are asking whether I have yet reached a state of perfection, the answer is "No." I am on the difficult road or "narrow path" which leads to life. As long as I stay on that road, I will be acceptable to God. If I get off that road and merely serve myself, I reverse my initial standing as a disciple of Christ. For He requires that I forsake self-service, and take up my cross daily in order to be His disciple.
I have never met anyone who has reached a "state of perfection", not yet anyways. So the next question is, assuming you were to die today, would it be necessary for you to go through "hell fire" in order to reach perfection?
But even if I stay on that difficult road, I may have wrong attitudes or sometimes love myself more than my neighbour, or possess many other character defects which God will not tolerate, and therefore must be corrected. Thus I am inclined to think that there is some kind of correction, a "salting with fire" which is needed in order to reach that completeness which God desires. I think this is the case, not only with me, but with all of my beloved brothers and sisters. Some of this salting will probably occur after the resurrection.
Forgive me for being simple, but I find that the scriptures to emphatically teach that our "completeness" is found in Christ. If not, how could Paul tell the Colossians "and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;"?..Are we to assume that all the Colossian people were sinless and thus "complete", or did Paul have a different understanding of what being "complete" means. I think it's the latter..
Together with the apostle Paul I can say that I am convinced of this, that he who began a good work in me will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6)
I think you are reading an awful lot into Paul's words here. I see this as reference to the work that God is doing in the present tense, in a disciples life, not some promise that God will throw us in the fire to salt us. Thanks for the interaction.

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Homer
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Re: Salvation: 1 The Formula

Post by Homer » Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:56 pm

Paidon,

As you know, I have long been puzzled by your view (rejection of imputed righteousness, which seems to be plainly taught by Paul). You write:
God isn't interested in our having a POSITIONAL righteousness, but only in our possession of ACTUAL righteousness.
As I understand imputed righteousness, God sees the person who trusts in Jesus as Lord and savior as though the person is as righteous as Christ, though he is not. You reject this as a phony righteousness, insisting that a person must be actually righteous. But you admit to being imperfect (I think). How does this square with God requiring actual righteousness, and when and how do you know you have it?

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brody196
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Re: Salvation: 1 The Formula

Post by brody196 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:12 pm

Homer wrote:Paidon,

As you know, I have long been puzzled by your view (rejection of imputed righteousness, which seems to be plainly taught by Paul). You write:
God isn't interested in our having a POSITIONAL righteousness, but only in our possession of ACTUAL righteousness.
As I understand imputed righteousness, God sees the person who trusts in Jesus as Lord and savior as though the person is as righteous as Christ, though he is not. You reject this as a phony righteousness, insisting that a person must be actually righteous. But you admit to being imperfect (I think). How does this square with God requiring actual righteousness, and when and how do you know you have it?
I was actually wondering the same thing! Thanks for wording it better than me.

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Paidion
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Re: Salvation: 1 The Formula

Post by Paidion » Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:59 pm

I have discussed true salvation in other threads of this forum and have addressed these questions over and over. I simply don't have the time nor the energy, and maybe not evern the ability to go through it all again. And this is not a cop-out.

However, I might say my position is similar to that of Mikhail Hany of the Coptic Orthodox Church. I think I also previously posted a link to the first of his 12 video talks.
Here is the first. The second is available at the site in which you watch the first. And similarly the others are readily available.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D28MWNYGYAU

The view which you, Brody and Homer, seem to espouse did not exist prior to middle-ages Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. And when it did arise, it seems to be based wholly on a misunderstanding of certain chapters of Romans. Read Romans 2 again and see whether or not that fits your view.

I do not belong to the Orthodox Church, but I recognize the explanation of true salvation for sin when I hear it.

I think the idea that God sees us as righteous when we are not is the biggest and most serious of all falsehoods and religious deception. It takes away from the power of Christ's death to deliver us from sin. Why bother with deliverance, if God is blinded to your sin because you're "covered" so that He sees you as totally righteous? I was once deceived by that doctrine, too. It didn't really matter if I was righteous or not. I could sin with impunity and still be "totally righteous" in God's sight.

As George MacDonald put it:
Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him. If hell be needful to save him, hell will blaze, and the worm will writhe and bite, until he takes refuge in the will of the Father. "Salvation from hell" is salvation as conceived by such to whom hell and not evil is the terror.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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jeremiah
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Re: Salvation: 1 The Formula

Post by jeremiah » Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:50 pm

Hello Homer,
As you know, I have long been puzzled by your view (rejection of imputed righteousness, which seems to be plainly taught by Paul)....As I understand imputed righteousness, God sees the person who trusts in Jesus as Lord and savior as though the person is as righteous as Christ, though he is not.
When you say plainly taught, would the foundation of this imputation be found in Romans 4 and 5? Or elsewhere?

I'm not trying to play dumb, I only want to know where you're drawing it from.



Peace be with you man...
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

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jriccitelli
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Re: Salvation: 1 The Formula

Post by jriccitelli » Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:40 am

Nobody here would disagree that true faith ‘should’ produce righteousness, but true faith is a belief that God is righteous, not man.
I know you default to what you call ‘enabling grace’ but Christendom generally refers to the power that produces righteousness in us as the work of the ‘Holy Spirit’.
Paidion don’t you agree that it is the Holy Spirit (and or Jesus in us) that leads us to ‘righteous’ works?
And don’t you agree that sins are ‘our’ doing, so only in ‘putting to death our flesh’ can we stop sinning?
'Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb; yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God' (Romans 4:19-20)
However, some of them think it's a good idea (but unnecessary) to be actually righteous too. They call this "sanctification" and separate it from salvation… They think it's all about being saved from hell, and that our actions have nothing to do with it. (Paidion pg1)
I am glad you write ‘some’ believe this or that in your previous posts, because this is not what Christianity believes in general. You can make a case that some say and do things that reveal themselves as hypocrites, but this is not the fault of having Jesus as your personal Savior. People still do, and have always generally believed that being a Christian means you stop sinning, or at least should.

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