Post
by Ralph » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:34 pm
Backwoodsman,
Thank you for writing. With better communication, we might now be able to converge on the truth about this crucial topic and other associated topics. I look forward to it.
Peace be to you always. I continue to ask the Lord to bless you in specific ways, even though I often firmly disagree with what you write.
I understand your passion for handling the Scriptures properly. You have made that clear in the past. On the other hand, there may be some old understandings of Scripture that are wrong and that need to be discarded. The Scriptures are alive. They are as alive as God Himself is alive. The Scriptures are not wooden, dead text on a page. We are expected to meditate on them (Psalm 1) and let God speak to us while we stay within the bounds of orthodoxy. We both know examples of people who even today have wandered far outside the bounds of orthodoxy. Your grave concerns in this regard are well-founded.
Your disagreements with what I have written have been continuous and firm. I have consistently met firmness with firmness only in order to maintain balance, so that the theme of this thread would not get lost. That was only fair. I have been extremely bold, as you have been.
The theme of this thread has been constant and has been re-stated repeatedly throughout this thread. Since you rarely, if ever, overtly agreed with me on anything, I could only conclude that you were disagreeing with everything that I had ever written. I honestly could not understand how you could repeatedly disagree with the concept of drawing near to the Lord to appropriate His strength and wisdom in times of temptations and other trials and the concept of selflessly praying for other people, which comprise the theme of this thread. Both concepts are thoroughly Scriptural and essential parts of the believer’s life.
I cannot read your mind. My responses have consistently been based on the actual words that you wrote to me. For a long time, I believed that you didn’t understand what I had written, but on 2/2/12, you stated that you did understand. So then I decided to flush out the reasons for our disagreements --- to get you to tell me what you actually believe --- to bring things into clear view. I purposely forced you to re-evaluate your position in the light of Scriptural facts. That was only fair.
Here is what you wrote on 2/2/12:
“Adam and Eve had a relationship with God, the nature and closeness of which we can barely begin to imagine, much less experience, in this life. It didn't stop them from making a conscious choice to disobey God. It seems foolhardy, at best, to imagine that we can overcome temptation and sin by having a closer relationship with God than they had. Such ideas only set people up for failure and disillusionment with spiritual things.”
You wrote your statement (above) in direct response to my earlier statement with which you were pointedly disagreeing. Therefore, I fairly concluded that you did not agree with what I had already written.
I disagreed with at least part your statement (above), and I explained my disagreements in my post of 2/3/12. It was only fair for me to do so. Adam and Eve failed because they did not draw near to God to receive His strength and wisdom in their time of need. They did not call out to Him. Their relationship with the Lord was not an abiding relationship. They had never before failed, so they didn’t know how weak they were without having the Lord alongside them. They had to learn that lesson, as we do also. The problem was a relationship problem. God wanted a close relationship with them, but the testing in Eden proved that the relationship was not close. People who have close relationships with the Lord do not ignore Him like Adam and Eve did. God promised to remedy the relationship problem by sending a Savior, and the existence of that promise then caused some people to hope in the Lord and trust in Him. Among those people who hoped and trusted in Him were Enoch and Noah. When they drew near to the Lord, they received His strength and wisdom. They had no strength and wisdom of their own to live righteously. They had the same weak flesh as Adam and Eve.
Here is what you wrote on 2/2/12:
“Those who triumphed, triumphed because they chose to do what they knew was right, and chose to stand firm in that decision regardless of the cost. Hebrews 11 puts it even more simply: BY FAITH. Those who failed, failed because they deliberately chose to disobey God's clear commandment and do what they knew was wrong.”
You wrote your statement (above) in direct response to my earlier statement with which you were pointedly disagreeing. Therefore, I fairly concluded that you did not agree with what I had already written.
I disagree with your statement (above), and I explained my disagreements in my post of 2/3/12. Those who triumphed did so because of their close relationship with the Lord, who gave them His strength and wisdom. It was not because they had the personal inner strength to choose correctly. Noah triumphed because he walked with God and received His strength and wisdom. It wasn’t because of Noah’s inner strength to choose correctly. No human being has that kind of inner strength without the Lord alongside or within. James wrote that God draws near to us when we draw near to Him. It is all about relationship. The people who triumphed in the Old Testament did so because they received the Lord’s strength and wisdom through their close relationship with Him. When God was with them, they triumphed like Joseph in Egypt did. Joseph had no personal inner strength or wisdom of his own. The same was true of Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego in Babylon.
The last paragraph of your post on 2/2/12 was a clear expression of your frustration (or exasperation) with my bold persistence. It sounded to me like you were almost ready to quit this discussion. I wasn’t going to quit, so I wrote a reply that would make you tell me what you really believe --- to bring everything into clear view. I forced you to re-evaluate your position in the light of Scriptural facts. That was only fair.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
A brief comparison of the behavior of Adam in the garden of Eden and the behavior of Jesus Christ (the second Adam) in the garden of Gethsemane was given in the opening paragraphs of the very first post in this thread.
A more complete comparison follows.
The decision facing Adam in the garden of Eden was different from the decision facing Jesus Christ in the garden of Gethsemane, but both decisions were monumental. Both decisions were about doing the Father’s will.
Adam already knew his Father’s will, and Jesus Christ already knew His Father’s will.
Adam did not pray, but Jesus Christ did.
Adam did not draw near to his Father, but Jesus Christ did.
Adam did not receive strength and wisdom from his Father, but Jesus Christ did.
Adam failed, but Jesus Christ triumphed.
The clear conclusion is that we must draw near to our heavenly Father like Jesus did in time of need.
Hebrews 4 (RSV):
14 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Moreover, we should always selflessly pray for other people, including those times when we ourselves are in need. Selfless prayers for other people are consistent with loving our neighbors as ourselves. Selflessly praying for other people removes our attention from ourselves. It breaks the strangleholds of temptations that try to get us to have a pity party or otherwise to selfishly satisfy our own desires in unwise, unhealthy, ungodly ways. Selfless praying for other people is consistent with God’s will and it brings glory to Him. For example, if King David had drawn near to the Lord when he was tempted and if he had selflessly prayed for the Lord’s blessings to be bountifully poured out upon Bathsheba and Uriah in their marriage, everyone involved would have fared exceedingly better. But David did not do that, and the results were devastating.
At the end of Job’s terrible trials, he selflessly prayed for his friends. The apostles selflessly prayed for others. Without such praying for others, they could not have triumphed in the spreading of the gospel.
It is helpful to examine what is said about Enoch and Noah in Genesis.
Genesis 5 (RSV):
22 Enoch walked with God after the birth of Methuselah three hundred years, and had other sons and daughters. 23 Thus all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.
Genesis 5 (Amplified):
22 Enoch walked [in habitual fellowship] with God after the birth of Methuselah 300 years, and had other sons and daughters. 23 So all the days of Enoch were 365 years. 24 And Enoch walked [in habitual fellowship] with God; and he was not, for God took him [home with Him].
Genesis 6 (RSV):
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. 9 These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation; Noah walked with God.
Genesis 6 (Amplified):
8 But Noah found grace (favor) in the eyes of the Lord. 9 This is the history of the generations of Noah. Noah was a just and righteous man, blameless in his [evil] generation; Noah walked [in habitual fellowship] with God.
Both Enoch and Noah walked with God; but that was not said of Adam. Enoch and Noah had close personal relationships with God.
Our heavenly Father wants the same for us.
Ralph