The Narrow Path Ministries

Greetings,
I’m gonna just “throw this out here” for anyone interested in joining in…

The recent posts we have had concerning the Trinity has alerted me to the fact that it might be beneficial—and fun—for us to simply “start from the top” with respect to “doing theology” (for, in those recent threads on the Trinity, some fundamental concepts concerning the nature of God came up which would be beneficial to discuss). So, in this thread, I simply am aiming to begin a discussion of theology from the beginning. Yes, a very challenging endeavor-- but, also, a potentially very fun endeavor (and PART of the fun is the challenge itself! Though, the great majority of the fun-- or, should I say, JOY-- is simply coming to know more about our all-good, all-powerful, and all-loving GOD!)

In this thread, I propose that we take it for granted that we base our theology on what God has revealed about Himself (His nature, His works of creation and redemption) in the Sacred Scriptures (utilizing, if/when necessary, any insights that might be gained from extra-Biblical sources which might enlighten our minds as to the true sense or meaning of the Scriptures), while also, of course, utilizing our human reason to draw out conclusions about God (and His works). In other words, I say that we take it for granted that this is how we “do” theology, how we study God (and, again, His works, His works of creating and redeeming/sanctifying/saving His creatures, especially man).

I also say that we take it for granted that the primary subject of theology is God Himself, even if, in studying God (i.e., in doing theology), we often study His creatures and His works among His creatures (especially man).

So, with that briefly stated idea of what is the nature and purpose of theology, I propose to start with, first, a direct study on God Himself, i.e., on His very nature (and then, after studying God and His nature, if there is interest, delving into His creatures and His works among them).

Now, as distinct from most other areas of study (other sciences), the existence of the subject of theology—namely, God—is not self-evident. This fact—that the existence of God is not, to us men (human beings), self-evident—can be gleaned from the Scriptures themselves, which tell us that it is possible for us to deny the existence of God: “The fool has said in his heart, ‘There is no God’.” (Ps. 14:1) So, while the Scriptures themselves, of course, reveal that God exists (and, as Scripture is our authority in theology, in doing theology, we, simply speaking, need no further testimony concerning God’s existence than this Scriptural testimony), these same Scriptures also tell us that the existence and certain things about the nature of God can be demonstrated from His works in creations: “The invisible things of Him are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made.” (Romans 1:20) So, based on the Scriptures themselves, it appears useful for us, in our endeavor to deepen our understanding of God Himself, His existence, attributes, and qualities—i.e., “the invisible things of God”-- and the Scriptural revelations God has given to us about Himself, to consider how we are able to demonstrate and understand more deeply the existence and nature of God by looking at the things that are made.

So, with this said, I say that we can begin our theological investigation by simply asking the question: “Does God exist?”, and try to show, from reason, that this is so (again, taking Romans 1:20 as our Scriptural mandate for carrying out such an investigation).

Now, of course, some may deny God’s existence by pointing out the fact that there is evil in the world. After all, some may say, if there is a God—and, by “God”, we mean a perfectly GOOD, as well as perfectly wise and powerful, being—then there should not be any evil in the world. But, of course, there is evil in the world; thus, it would seem, there is no God.

Others may deny God’s existence by saying that asserting His existence is simply unnecessary: it seems possible to account for all things in nature by pointing to a single principle, which is nature itself (or, as some would say, all effects in nature can be reduced to some single “scientific explanation”); and, as for giving an account for things done by man, we can simply say those are caused by man’s free will (if one believes in such a thing!)

Yet, human reason, as the Scriptures say, can show that there is a God; and this in at least five ways. While giving an exhaustive (and deeply convincing) account for these “five ways” would require, for each way, an entire course on philosophy, here is a summary argument of each of the ways (again, these are VERY base, concise, and simple summaries of many centuries of serious and challenging philosophical thought):

1.) “First Mover” Argument: There is motion in the world; but, if there is motion in the world, there must ultimately be some First Un-Moved Mover causing that motion. This First Un-Moved Mover we call “God”.

2.) “First Cause” Argument: In the world, there are things which are effects of other causes. But, if there are things which are effects of other causes, we must, eventually, arrive at some First “Un-Caused” Cause, which is the Cause behind all other causes. This First Cause we call “God”.

3.) “Necessary Being” Argument: In the world of nature, things that exist have the possibility of not existing (and, in fact, they all come out of non-existence, and return to non-existence). But, in such a world, for the world to continue to exist at all, there must be some Being whose existence is not contingent—i.e., whose existence can not change from non-being to being, or from being to non-being—but, rather, whose existence is absolutely necessary. We call this Necessary Being “God”.

4.) “Argument from *Goodness*”: In the world, we find that there are “grades”/degrees of goodness: some things contain more goodness or perfection in themselves than other things (eg., a plant is more perfect than a rock; a dog more perfect than a plant; a man more perfect than a dog; etc.) However, in such a world, there must be some Being who is Goodness Itself, since there is no sense in speaking about one thing being “better” than another if there was not some Being which served as the “standard”, “maximum”, and source of all goodness. This perfectly good Being we call “God”.

5.) “Argument from *Design* or *Governance*”: In the world, we notice a real order and governance in things, even in things which lack intelligence in themselves; eg., bees know how to make a hive; birds, a nest; the parts of the human body, lacking intelligence in themselves, work together in an intelligent manner for the good end of keeping the body alive; etc. However, if there is order and governance in the unintelligent things of the Universe, there must be some intelligent Being causing and maintaining that order. This Intelligent Designer and Governor we call “God” (as the Psalmist says, "Can He who made the ear not hear? Can He who formed the eye not see?").


So, those are basic summaries of five frequent ways that philosophers have put forward to confirm, by reason, what Scripture reveals, namely, that God exists.

But, in the process of such a discovery, human reason, as Romans 1:20 said would happened, discovers not ONLY the existence of God, but ALSO a knowledge about certain other “invisible things of God”, i.e., certain other attributes of God. But, we can go into those attributes later.

For now, again, I just throw this much out as a simple “jump start” to a potentially fun “theology from the top” thread for anyone else interested in joining in and commenting!


In Christ,
BrotherAlan

And, oh yes, to respond to the objections denying God's existence, to the first objection (the "problem of evil"), we can say, with Augustine, "Since God is the highest good, He would not allow any evil to exist in His works, unless His omnipotence and goodness were such as to bring good even out of evil." This is part of the infinite goodness of God, that He should allow evil to exist, and out of it produce good. We could also add C.S. Lewis' insight that the "Problem of Evil" "turns in on itself": if one says that there is REAL evil in the world, one must also admit there is REAL good in the world (which, in the end, leads us to God, as the "Argument from Goodness" shows); on the other hand, if one says that the evil in the world is NOT real, but only "in our heads", then there simply is no real argument based on the "problem of evil", for there would be no such thing as evil.

To reply to the second objection about the lack of necessity of reducing things back to God, as is argued in the "First Cause" argument, whatever is done by nature can be traced back to God, as to its first cause. And, whatever is done voluntarily (by man) must also be traced back to some higher cause other than human reason or will, since these can change or fail (for all things that are changeable and capable of defect must be traced back to an immovable and self-necessary first principle, as was argued in the first and third arguments for God's existence).

So, I propose with these that we have set down real arguments from reason to show God exists, and responded to the two main atheistic objections.

In Christ,
BrotherAlan

Rejoice Brother Alan!

Your arguments for the existence of God make sense.

However, I do have a major problem with the following that you entered in your second post:

...we can say, with Augustine, "Since God is the highest good, He would not allow any evil to exist in His works, unless His omnipotence and goodness were such as to bring good even out of evil."

Yours is a fairly common attempt to justify evil in the world. But is it really true? Does God "allow" the rape and murder of little girls in order to bring about a greater good? And if so, what could that greater good possibly be? Why does He never tell us what the greater good is? And is there no other way for the omnipotent God to bring about that greater good without "allowing" little girls to be raped and murdered?

Hello, Paidion--
Thank you for your reply, Paidion.

While I have my own ideas in response to your response/questions, I would first be interested to hear how you yourself respond to your own questions, how you would respond to the difficulty of the "Problem of Evil" (that is, of believing/knowing that there is, on the one hand, a God who is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-good, i.e., a God who is aware of what evil is and how to stop it, who is powerful enough to do so, and who does not will evil since He is all-good, and, yet, on the other hand, there is, in fact, evil in the world). Again, I have my own thoughts on this (which are, basically, along the same lines as Augustine, and I think there are concrete things that we can point to our common life experience, as well as in salvation history and divine revelation, which manifest the soundness of Augustine's proposed solution to this "Problem of Evil"), but I would be interested to first hear what you propose is the resolution to this difficulty (for, as of now, I am not sure if there actually is another solution other than the one Augustine proposes).

Peace...

In Christ,
BrotherAlan

Thank you for your response, Brother Alan,

My thought is that if God were to prevent people from committing atrocities and carrying out other evils, He would have to override man's free will (the ability to choose and to carry out that choice). God Himself created man with that free will. If man does not have the ability to choose, but is forced to behave as God wants him to behave, he is but a robot.

However, God wants everyone to choose Him of his own free will, and to submit to His authority, and He is willing to wait as long as it takes, for all mankind to make that choice. Meanwhile, He is encouraging man to make that choice now through His agents—apostles, overseers in Christian assemblies, missionaries, etc.

Thanks, Paidion.

I certainly don’t disagree with the idea that God does not take away free will in man. However, if God is all-powerful, He is able to move a man’s free will to FREELY choose the good. In fact, every time we choose good, we are not the PRIMARY cause of that good choice: God is (we are a secondary cause). God is the cause of all good, even the good of our free choices which are good. That we fall into sin is a result of God permitting that fall (for, again, He could, if He wanted to, prevent such a fall by moving us to freely choose the good). Is God to blame, then, for sin? Certainly not! For, the cause of sin is OUR free choice, not God’s. Is God to be given credit for our good choices? Certainly He is! Both God and we are to be given credit for our good choices (but God more than us, for He is the primary cause, we merely secondary causes, of our good choices), while we alone can “take credit” for our sinful choices (as one saying goes: “The only thing that we own ALL by ourselves are our sins and lies.”)

But, to bring this back to the original objection: if there is a God who is all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful, then there should not be evil in the world; but, there is evil in the world. Therefore, there is not a God who is all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful (so, if there is a God, He is either not all-good, or not all-knowing, or not all-powerful). Augustine’s answer to this claim—which, I think, is the only possible one—is that God IS all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful, but, though He has all these attributes, He allows evil (including moral evil) to occur in order to bring about a greater good.

What possible greater good can come about by God allowing sins, and even horrible atrocities, to occur in our world? Well, one good that absolutely can not exist without sin is the good of forgiveness and mercy (given both by God, and by us, in the face of moral evil). The nice story that you gave the other day about the man who was shown harsh treatment but responded with mercy is a great example of this: unless if that man was first treated harshly, he would not have had the chance to show his great virtue of mercy. There are other virtues that can only be exercised in the face of sin: for example, it is only because God allows the horror of war that we are able to praise the bravery shown by heroic soldiers in the face of such horror. Again, God allows each of us to fall into sin in order to give us a chance to grow in humility, and depend on Him and His grace, instead of our own natural powers. The biggest evils in the world were, first, the first sin of our First Parents, and the murder of Christ. But, both of these evils were necessary in order to bring about a greater good: namely, the Redemption of Our Race by Our Savior, Jesus Christ. In the end, the greater good that comes about by God allowing all these horrible, horrible, horrible evils (some of which you mentioned, such as cruel rape of innocent girls; and, we can add to that many other unspeakably horrible things, such as atrocities in war—especially the horrible war in our day against the Precious Unborn, hundreds of millions of whom have been most cruelly and unjustly killed by abortion in the last century) is the salvation of souls, the gift of the Beatific Vision (the Vision of God) for souls. How God precisely effects the salvation of souls through any individual evil is oftentimes unknown to us (though, sometimes, as stated in the examples above, we do get at least a glimpse of SOME good that is brought about ONLY because a previous evil existed, was allowed by the all-good God to exist). When we do not see precisely good comes about through a given evil, it is then that we are forced to simply trust in the all-good God (and, in fact, this is OFTEN the case, especially in the face of unspeakably painful tragedies: in the face of such tragedies, it is often foolish and cruel to even try to come up with a precise reason as to why such an evil occurs; all that can be done in such situations is mourning over the evil, and trusting in the Good God that He is good and also knows what He is doing in permitting such evils to occur and not preventing them). In fact, that humble trust in the good God is itself one good that comes about in the face of such evils, as seen throughout the Scriptures (so many stories of righteous persons who are facing evil and simply have to trust in God in those moments). But, again, in the end, all evil is allowed by God to exist to, one way or another, bring about the salvation of souls: As the Scriptures say somewhere, “All things work together for the good of those who have been called according to God’s decree.” This shows us how great the Beatific Vision, the Vision of God, must be: that Vision outweighs even all of these most wretched evils (else, the Good God would not allow such evils to occur).

Your thoughts on all this?

In Christ,
BrotherAlan

BrotherAlan,

You wrote:

Augustine’s answer to this claim—which, I think, is the only possible one—is that God IS all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful, but, though He has all these attributes, He allows evil (including moral evil) to occur in order to bring about a greater good.

I think Augustine's answer is insufficient. If God is all powerful, and I believe He is, then why could He not bring about any desired good, while at the same time limiting the amount of evil that promotes the good?

If the following you wrote is true, why would God have any need to use evil to bring about any particular good?

However, if God is all-powerful, He is able to move a man’s free will to FREELY choose the good. In fact, every time we choose good, we are not the PRIMARY cause of that good choice: God is (we are a secondary cause).

Hi, Homer--
Here are my takes.

When we say that God is all-powerful, we mean that He can do anything that is truly possible. But, some things are metaphysically and logically impossible: for example, making a square circle (that's a contradiction in terms). Some goods are only possible to exist if a previous evil exists. Again, for example: forgiveness can only exist if there is sin (eg., Joseph, the son of Patriarch Jacob, with his brothers); heroics can only exist if there is an evil with which one must confront (eg., David with Goliath); martyrdom can only be exercised if there is persecution (eg., Stephen in the Book of Acts); etc. In order for God to allow His creatures to participate in those goods, eg., forgiving, showing heroics, martyrdom, etc., He must, by logical necessity, allow certain evils to exist (for, "forgiveness without sin", "heroics without facing a challenge", "martyrdom without persecution", etc. are as illogical as, say, a "square circle"). Make sense?

In Christ,
BrotherAlan

BrotherAlan,

To me it does not make sense in all cases. For example, Paidion brought up the case of a little girl being raped and murdered. This is very real to my wife and I. Long before we knew each other we lived in a small town in California. A little girl, walking to her school bus on a country road, was raped and savagely murdered (see here: https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d ... N--------1). This was very real to my future wife. She attended church with the victim's family and visited them in their home. The family was devastated and never again the same. The father of the little girl was angry at God for a very long time and her older brother, who was supposed to walk his sister to the bus, failed to do so and was torn with guilt.

I asked earlier why God could not limit the amount of evil to promote the good. In this case, the mother apparently forgave the murderer; my wife said she never said a bad thing about him. But I question why the crime could not have been limited to rape and the girl allowed to live? The same example of forgiveness could have been shown.

Thanks, Homer.

Let me first say, right off the bat, based on your last response, that, when we delve into this particular area of theology—the “Problem of Evi”—we are delving into an area that, quite often and easily, can strike a very personal note for most, if not, all, of us, as most, if not all, of us have had, at one point in our lives or another, had to face, head-on, some awful, awful, awful and seemingly inexplicable tragedy and/or moral evil in our lives. Thus, we must tread somewhat cautiously when speaking about such things, as, again, most, if not all, of us have experienced this “Problem of Evil” in a VERY personal way (a problem that, if unresolved, can lead many to stop believing in the Good God).

Also, a pastoral note: When suffering souls are in such situations, the real solution is simply to mourne and weep and trust in God and His Providence (the conclusions of speculative theology can, perhaps, be brought in at some point in time, but only when a soul has sufficiently allowed one’s self to mourn or when a soul is truly interested; in my experience ministering to souls, it is often very counter-productive to try to “preach” speculative theology to a suffering soul when that soul simply needs to mourn; there is a time and place to talk about speculative theologies conclusions on such matters—such as on this forum, and at other times—but, often, not immediately following a tragedy…suffering souls generally need some time to mourn and grieve before their minds are truly ready to take in any deeper considerations as to why/how such horrible things can happen in a world governed by an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good God).

I am very, very, very sorry to hear about this awful crime against this innocent little girl—an indescribably unjust and cruel rape and murder. May God take that little girl into His arms forever, move the rapist-murderer to repentance before it is too late, and console those who were close to this dear girl and her family (including you and your wife). In situations like that, it is impossible to say exactly why God allowed that to happen; all we can do is say that we trust in God and His Providence (for allowing it to happen), and do what we can to make the best out of even an indescribably horrific action against such a poor, innocent girl (ugh, it really breaks my heart to hear horrible stories like this, ugh…).
The mother showed in this horrible situation showed heroic virtue in forgiving the murderer (and, the fact that her precious girl was not only raped, but also murdered, means that she had to show EXTRA deep forgiveness for BOTH crimes, even more than if it was just one of these awful crimes against her little one).

So, yes, situations like this unspeakably awful situation you presented here show that there is evil in the world. But, to tie it back to our original question: How do we reconcile God’s omnipotence, all-goodness, and all-knowingness with the existence this particular evil, and countless other evils like this? I guess I’ll just ask you, Homer, to give us your thoughts on this. How do you, personally, reconcile those attributes of God with the existence of evil?

In Christ,
BrotherAlan