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Re: Jesus is God

Posted: Thu May 04, 2023 10:09 am
by Homer
Dwight,

I am mostly with you on the Trinity but would take exception to this:
because He knew He was the Father
Jesus can not simultaneously be both Father and Son.

Re: Jesus is God

Posted: Thu May 04, 2023 3:36 pm
by dizerner
Homer with the truth BOMB.

Jesus called the Father's will "not my will."

Re: Jesus is God

Posted: Thu May 04, 2023 4:42 pm
by darinhouston
This is the support for his house of cards - the only way out is modalism, which is itself considered a non-trinitarian heresy and inconsistent with other scripture (such as dialogue between the Son and the Father and interaction between the Son and the Spirit). A rational response would be to reconsider the presuppositions and seriously consider alternative translations to the many scriptures that are being used even if that leads to a non-orthodox position.

Re: Jesus is God

Posted: Thu May 04, 2023 5:11 pm
by dizerner
Let's just say, if Jesus had to fill out a job application for the position of God, he'd get hired.

Re: Jesus is God

Posted: Thu May 04, 2023 5:40 pm
by Seeker
darinhouston wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 4:42 pm
This is the support for his house of cards - the only way out is modalism, which is itself considered a non-trinitarian heresy and inconsistent with other scripture (such as dialogue between the Son and the Father and interaction between the Son and the Spirit). A rational response would be to reconsider the presuppositions and seriously consider alternative translations to the many scriptures that are being used even if that leads to a non-orthodox position.
Very well stated.

Re: Jesus is God

Posted: Thu May 04, 2023 6:53 pm
by dwight92070
Homer wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 10:09 am
Dwight,

I am mostly with you on the Trinity but would take exception to this:
because He knew He was the Father
Jesus can not simultaneously be both Father and Son.

If that were true, then Jesus is just toying with Philip when Philip asked Jesus to "show us the Father, and it is enough for us". Philip was expecting to see another "person", but Jesus basically told him - you're looking at Him.

Re: Jesus is God

Posted: Thu May 04, 2023 7:36 pm
by dwight92070
dizerner wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 3:36 pm
Homer with the truth BOMB.

Jesus called the Father's will "not my will."
They are distinct and yet, at the same time, they are each other.

Look at the traditional Trinity doctrine: the unity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead. If each of the three "persons" are God, then Jesus has to be the Father and the Holy Spirit. The Father has to be the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has to be the Son and the Father. Otherwise you have three Gods.

Romans 1: 4 identifies the Spirit of Holiness as Jesus Christ our Lord.
2 Corinthians 3:17 - Now THE LORD IS THE SPIRIT. So Jesus is the Holy Spirit, according to Paul. Why would He not also be the Father?

If the Word was God, then the Son of God, Jesus, was the Father. Jesus is the Father.

Isaiah tells us: "A child will be born to us, a son will be given to us (Jesus) ... and His name will be called ... Eternal Father ..." Jesus is the Father, according to Isaiah.

Re: Jesus is God

Posted: Thu May 04, 2023 7:50 pm
by dwight92070
darinhouston wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 4:42 pm
This is the support for his house of cards - the only way out is modalism, which is itself considered a non-trinitarian heresy and inconsistent with other scripture (such as dialogue between the Son and the Father and interaction between the Son and the Spirit). A rational response would be to reconsider the presuppositions and seriously consider alternative translations to the many scriptures that are being used even if that leads to a non-orthodox position.
There's nothing to get out of. I don't think my understanding is called modalism. I'm simply stating what I see in the Bible. Call it whatever you like. What about your presuppositions that tell us that we have God's approval to fall down and worship Jesus at His feet, and yet that still does not mean that He is God? Or that ALL CREATION will fall on their knees before the Lamb in Revelation 5, and worship Him, and yet He still is not God.

Re: Jesus is God

Posted: Thu May 04, 2023 7:58 pm
by mikew
dwight92070 wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 7:36 pm
dizerner wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 3:36 pm
Homer with the truth BOMB.

Jesus called the Father's will "not my will."
They are distinct and yet, at the same time, they are each other.

Look at the traditional Trinity doctrine: the unity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead. If each of the three "persons" are God, then Jesus has to be the Father and the Holy Spirit. The Father has to be the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has to be the Son and the Father. Otherwise you have three Gods.

Romans 1: 4 identifies the Spirit of Holiness as Jesus Christ our Lord.
2 Corinthians 3:17 - Now THE LORD IS THE SPIRIT. So Jesus is the Holy Spirit, according to Paul. Why would He not also be the Father?

If the Word was God, then the Son of God, Jesus, was the Father. Jesus is the Father.

Isaiah tells us: "A child will be born to us, a son will be given to us (Jesus) ... and His name will be called ... Eternal Father ..." Jesus is the Father, according to Isaiah.
Oops. I was getting disoriented on who is saying what.
We have to remember that the use of persons in the Trinitarian doctrine is not the same as our English-language concept. Here is an excerpt I grabbed but not sure if it is the ideal clarification
https://www.cru.org/us/en/train-and-gro ... inity.html

The divine essence is thus not something that exists “above” or “separate from” the three Persons, but the divine essence is the being of the three Persons. Neither should we think of the Persons as being defined by attributes added on to the being of God. Wayne Grudem explains:

But if each person is fully God and has all of God’s being, then we also should not think that the personal distinctions are any kind of additional attributes added on to the being of God . . . Rather, each person of the Trinity has all of the attributes of God, and no one Person has any attributes that are not possessed by the others.
© Desiring God. Website: desiringgod.org
Matt Perman is the director of career navigation at The King’s College NYC, a blogger, and an author.
I think the trinitarian doctrine has its strength in identifying the wrong concepts of God but only gives a glimpse into the essence of this triune Godhead is. In my paper on Gal 3:19-20, I show that Paul has used the deity of Christ in order for the shema, as used in verse 20, to remind the reader of Christ being in the Godhead. Now it may be possible that Paul would have shared a somewhat different aspect of the Godhead but at least we can see he utilized the binitarian detail in this passage. And now we have the best current option in the existing trinitarian conception.
Apart from the trinitarian doctrine, the death of Christ would simply be another martyr for the cause rather than a sacrifice for our sins. So there are important reasons to recognize the trinitarian concept where all three exist in unity in the Godhead.

Re: Jesus is God

Posted: Thu May 04, 2023 8:31 pm
by darinhouston
mikew wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 7:58 pm
Apart from the trinitarian doctrine, the death of Christ would simply be another martyr for the cause rather than a sacrifice for our sins.
I don't agree with this - it's a common presupposition but I don't see it taught in scripture. It would be worthy of a separate thread if we can discuss it rationally and thoughtfully. We tend to underemphasize his life of obedience and sinlessness. Along the lines of the Christus Victor aspects of the atonement (which none of the theories adequately explain).