Jesus is God

[dwight92070]

The whole context of the chapter makes it clear to anyone reading it, that to reject God's Son, the Anointed One, Christ, is to reject God. Christ had not yet physically appeared on the earth, but David, nonetheless, informs the rebelling nations and wicked kings, that they will not only suffer God's wrath, but also the wrath of the Son, if they don't repent and worship Him, i.e. the Father and the Son.

The apostle John tells us that Christ was actually "The Word" back then, but David, being a prophet, prophesied and called Him God's "Anointed" and God's Son. David clearly is inspired by God here to, in essence, connect the Old Testament with the New, in equating the wrath of God with the wrath of His Son, and equating the worship of God with the worship of His Son. So it is obvious, that they indeed are One.

Rejecting David or rejecting Israel was also rejecting God. That doesn't make them God.

Dwight - Paul clearly identifies the "anointed" and "My Son" in this chapter as Christ, not David and not Israel (Acts 13:33). Besides that, we are not commanded to worship David or Israel. We are commanded to worship Jesus.

The apostle John tells us that The Word was something in the beginning (though what beginning is unclear) and that it was "like God" or made of "God stuff" or "aligned with God" or the like (the grammar is awkward and somewhat ambiguous) -

- but he doesn't tell us that Christ WAS that Word (that's an inference).

Dwight - Actually he does - "and the Word (which was God) became flesh and dwelt among us, and we saw HIS glory ...as of the only begotten from the Father."

Dwight - The Jews knew Genesis 1:1. The apostle John knew Genesis 1:1. To suppose that "In the beginning" in John 1:1 is somehow different than "In the beginning" in Genesis 1:1 is to invite confusion into Bible interpretation. There's no need whatsoever to do that.

Only that that Word became enfleshed in Christ. Don't put words in John's mouth.

Dwight - You are the one putting words in John's mouth. You will not find anywhere in that chapter, that the Word "was something", was "like God" or "made of God stuff" or "aligned with God". Those are your words, not John's.

You act like you are quoting, but you are interpreting.

Dwight - Actually, you are interpreting, not quoting.

Dwight - You "could" be right, but it's only "argument." There is a reason John didn't say "Christ" was in the beginning with God.

Dwight - Actually, that's exactly what John said in verse 2 - "This One (the Word which became flesh) was in the beginning with God."

[darinhouston]

Dwight, you seem incapable of seeing any viewpoint beyond your own. I will not be responding.

[dwight92070]

Dwight, you seem incapable of seeing any viewpoint beyond your own. I will not be responding.

Dwight - It's amazing that you can't see that same thing in yourself. If you can't prevail with your argument, then you just walk away. Actually, I did see your viewpoint, and I disagreed with it, and even gave my reasons for my disagreement.

[darinhouston]

I do not accept that criticism. At least not in this case. There is simply no way to meaningfully engage your style of “argumentation.“


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[Timios]

Okay Darin, don't engage Dwight. Just "tell it like it is!

[dwight92070]

This verse most likely has been dealt with before, but it bears repeating. Titus 2:13 "... looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us ..."

Who do we expect to appear? Obviously, Jesus, at His 2nd coming. Here, Paul calls Christ Jesus, our great God and Savior. Some have said that it should be translated: "... looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and our Savior, Christ Jesus ..." But throughout the New Testament, our blessed hope is the appearing of Jesus at His 2nd coming, not specifically the appearing of the glory of God, although I'm sure we will see that in His 2nd coming and even after that.

Also, in the same book, Paul calls God, our Savior, three times and he calls Jesus, our Savior, three times - one time in each chapter. However, in the above verse in chapter two, it appears very clear that He calls Christ Jesus, not only our Savior, but also our God.

Also, in Titus 1:4, we see that the source of grace and peace, is not only God the Father, but also Christ Jesus.

The logical synthesis of these verses shows us that Jesus and God the Father are One. Of course, we also know from other New Testament verses that the Holy Spirit is also One with them.

[Paidion]

These verses shows us that Jesus and God the Father are One.

Are you saying that Jesus and the Father are the same divine Person?

Ac 13:33 he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, ‘You are my Son; today I have begotten you.’

Did the Father beget Himself?

Heb 5:5 So also Christ did not glorify himself in becoming a high priest, but was appointed by the one who said to him, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you".

[dwight92070]

These verses shows us that Jesus and God the Father are One.

Are you saying that Jesus and the Father are the same divine Person?

Dwight - It does appear that that is indeed the case. And yet, Biblically, they are also different Persons at the same time. Thus the mystery of the Trinity. Jesus Himself said "I and the Father are One." And Paul calls Jesus "... our great God and Savior." So if Paul calls Him that, then I guess we can too.

Ac 13:33 he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, ‘You are my Son; today I have begotten you.’

Did the Father beget Himself?

Dwight -The context of both verses you quote is the Father raising Jesus from the dead. We have already established that Jesus Himself said that HE WOULD RAISE HIMSELF FROM THE DEAD. ("Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.") So the Bible clearly states that the Father raised Jesus AND JESUS RAISED HIMSELF. Here we see another example of the Father and Jesus performing the same action, so yes, it does appear that they are the same Person. You call it "the Father begetting Himself". But we know that the Bible ALSO distinguishes the Father from the Son. There is that mystery again. The Bible plainly states it, but does not explain it.

Heb 5:5 So also Christ did not glorify himself in becoming a high priest, but was appointed by the one who said to him, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you".

[dwight92070]

In Hebrews 1:10, the writer quotes Psalm 102:25, where Yahweh is being referred to. But in Hebrews 1:10, the author is saying that the Son (vs. 8), Jesus, is actually Yahweh, or we could say that Jesus is God.

[Otherness]

Paidion>>> Dwight, you wrote: “These verses show us that Jesus and God the Father are One.” Are you saying that Jesus and the Father are the same divine Person?<<<

The “problem” here in asking if “Jesus and the Father are the same divine Person” is the (pre)supposition that the meaning of the word “Person” in describing I AM is (in every way) identical to the word “person” when describing a created “i am.” The Person Who is I AM has / is THE Divine Nature, while the person who is a created “i am” has a human nature. Trinitarians, inspired by Scripture, see that (the quality of) Divine Nature is not to be subjected to / measured by the standard of human nature.

I AM is a Person...(al) Being. In His aseity He exists as He wills, that is, He will be Who He wills to be : He is I AM Who I AM. A human being is a person because he is a (created) i am, but his person-hood is not the measure of the Person-hood of I AM.

This I AM, this Person...(al) Being, desires beings created in His image and likeness (children) with whom to share the glory and joy of His existence. Therefore, He exists as He wills to exist to be the Creator of such beings. They are the End of the Reason and the Reasoning (the Logos) of Creation, and He, Himself, is the Beginning that leads to that End (His Body). In that He (the Logos) is the Beginning, the Creation is predestined to reach the End He intends.

Father/Son/Holy Spirit is the creative dynamic of this Person...(al) Being. This dynamic of “Otherness” within this Person...(al) Being makes “room / space / separateness / distinction” within Him for His Creation. Where else is there for it to exist? This Subject / Subject dynamic of His Being is the spiritual ground of the object / object existence of Creation. The Genesis narrative reveals that it is created out of nothing : nothing but expressed thoughts : words spoken into the “emptiness / nothingness” in His Being (that exists because He is Other within Himself). Creation's consistency is rock-solid (permanent) only because He holds it in being by the power of His will, and it will, in His perfect time, simply evaporate (into nothingness) in the consuming fire of the revelation of His Presence. Were God not Other within Himself, Creation would not only be not-other than Him, it would not be real in itself...and pantheism would be inescapable.