Many who struggle with same-sex attraction describe that they began to have these feelings relatively early on during their teen years with some claiming as early as pre-teen.
The context of Romans 1:26-32 implies that homosexual behavior results from a dedicated effort over time to reject God and the truth. Given that the individuals in the above scenarios haven't lived long enough to fit the profile described in this passage, how should we explain their early same sex attraction?
Also, it seems that the passage in Romans implies that homosexuality is a judgement related to continual and persistent rejection of God.
Why are there examples of individuals raised in the church or Godly families that struggle with same sex attraction?
What about those who struggle with the tension between their desire to follow Christ and their same sex attraction?
Your thoughts please.
Romans 1:26-32 and reality?
Re: Romans 1:26-32 and reality?
There is no doubt in my mind that homosexual sex is condemned in scripture. However, the passage you are referring to has a narrow focus, so that I don't think it's a good idea use it the way you are. I'll quote the relevant section below:
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
Rom 1:27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Rom 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
Rom 1:29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
Rom 1:32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
Rom 2:1 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things.
Rom 2:2 We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things.
Rom 2:3 Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
Rom 2:6 He will render to each one according to his works:
Rom 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
Rom 2:8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
Rom 2:9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
Rom 2:10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.
Rom 2:11 For God shows no partiality.
That may seem long, but keep in mind that it's a unified argument (I could have quote a longer section to complete the point, but this is enough to give you the idea). The point of this passage is that the Israelites were given the Law of Moses on Mount Sinai and then afterward through Moses, through the tabernacle were taught things about the attributes of God and the true throne room in heaven, and exchanged this revelation for sin based on pagan idol worship. That makes them even more guilty than the Genitles who only know God through the comparatively weak tool of the conscience. We can see that God is not happy with homosexual activity, but the argument is being made in the context of special revelation by God to the Israelites that they disregarded. In that sense, it says nothing about the dynamic of someone growing up under the impression that they are gay.
Doug
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
Rom 1:27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Rom 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
Rom 1:29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
Rom 1:32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
Rom 2:1 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things.
Rom 2:2 We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things.
Rom 2:3 Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
Rom 2:6 He will render to each one according to his works:
Rom 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
Rom 2:8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
Rom 2:9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
Rom 2:10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.
Rom 2:11 For God shows no partiality.
That may seem long, but keep in mind that it's a unified argument (I could have quote a longer section to complete the point, but this is enough to give you the idea). The point of this passage is that the Israelites were given the Law of Moses on Mount Sinai and then afterward through Moses, through the tabernacle were taught things about the attributes of God and the true throne room in heaven, and exchanged this revelation for sin based on pagan idol worship. That makes them even more guilty than the Genitles who only know God through the comparatively weak tool of the conscience. We can see that God is not happy with homosexual activity, but the argument is being made in the context of special revelation by God to the Israelites that they disregarded. In that sense, it says nothing about the dynamic of someone growing up under the impression that they are gay.
Doug
Re: Romans 1:26-32 and reality?
I think you're probably reading the passage too individualistically too. It seems to me that Paul is making a point about human-kind (or a group within human-kind). There are certain consequences that come upon a people group when they reject God. Those consequences may be poured out on any and/or all of the members of that society, whether they are the actual guilty parties or not.
Hannah, for instance, was made barren by God even though she was quite clearly a faithful believer amidst a fallen society.
Hannah, for instance, was made barren by God even though she was quite clearly a faithful believer amidst a fallen society.
Re: Romans 1:26-32 and reality?
If you have any homosexual family members, I doubt it was a surprise to anyone when they finally came out.
I believe they are born cross-wired and they are not led down that path.
I know most Christians don't want that to be true, but it is.
For them to live with an opposite sex would be as repulsive to them as a same sex would be to those of us that are normal.
I think it is terrible what we are subjecting the military to.
I believe they are born cross-wired and they are not led down that path.
I know most Christians don't want that to be true, but it is.
For them to live with an opposite sex would be as repulsive to them as a same sex would be to those of us that are normal.
I think it is terrible what we are subjecting the military to.
MMathis
Las Vegas NV
Las Vegas NV
Re: Romans 1:26-32 and reality?
My own belief is that homosexuals were NOT "born that way", but that homosexuality if learned behaviour.
Those teens and pre-teens to which you refer, Schoel, may have had homosexual experiences or influences at an early age.
Those teens and pre-teens to which you refer, Schoel, may have had homosexual experiences or influences at an early age.
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: Romans 1:26-32 and reality?
I don't see why it is necessary to take such a dogmatic stance on the question. It may be, of course, that we don't have to choose between whether homosexuality is the result of genetics or environmental influences. It may be a both/and rather than an either/or. Some people with same-sex attraction may be genetically predisposed to such feelings, while others may develop them as a result of certain experiences. For some it may be a combination.MMathis wrote:If you have any homosexual family members, I doubt it was a surprise to anyone when they finally came out.
I believe they are born cross-wired and they are not led down that path.
I know most Christians don't want that to be true, but it is.
For them to live with an opposite sex would be as repulsive to them as a same sex would be to those of us that are normal.
I think it is terrible what we are subjecting the military to.
What is important to recognize, I think, is that whether it is a genetic predisposition or not really doesn't impact the Christian ethic toward homosexual behavior. We are all born with fallen tendencies. We are all attracted to sin. We are all called to obey Christ rather than our flesh. If there are Christians who don't want the reason for homosexuality to be genetic, then I suggest they simply haven't thought through the issue very well. Whether it is genetic or not makes no difference in my opinion. Hoping that it isn't implies that it does make a difference.
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robbyyoung
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Re: Romans 1:26-32 and reality?
Excellent post Matt. You summed it up quite nicely and I totally agree. Homosexuality is simply another sin, in the Christian way of life, that we are to mortify and NOT entertain as Godly. The world will of course indulge, support, and except this sin but a Child of God should oppose such a sin, especially if they find themselves struggling with this particular sin in their life. The Child of God knows The Father will provide the love and grace needed to overcome this sin, as He does with every sin in our lives, but the unbelieving and reprobate will continue in their unrepentant sin, receiving the condemnation of God.mattrose wrote:Whether it is genetic or not makes no difference in my opinion. Hoping that it isn't implies that it does make a difference.
We are all born in sin, but, Shall We Continue In Sin?
God Bless!
Re: Romans 1:26-32 and reality?
mattrose wrote:I think you're probably reading the passage too individualistically too. It seems to me that Paul is making a point about human-kind (or a group within human-kind). There are certain consequences that come upon a people group when they reject God. Those consequences may be poured out on any and/or all of the members of that society, whether they are the actual guilty parties or not.
This is the direction I was leaning, but I wanted to see if others saw it in a similar fashion.
My take:
Rampant sexual immorality and idolatry is a judgment that comes as the result of a society's continual rejection of the truth. While this passage is specifically aimed at revealing the Jewish nation's hypocrisy and has a general contextual warning for all communities, an individual may also be warned that a continual denial of the truth of their conscience regarding sin will lead them down the same path. While the main context is a warning about the judgement when truth is consistently denied, it can be extrapolated from this passage that homosexual behavior is considered taboo by God. However, it is incorrect to assert that all who struggle with same sex attraction are themselves necessarily hard-core deniers of the truth.
What do you think?
On an aside, I always thought Hannah's barrenness was merely a timing issue. God was awaiting the right time to enable her to have children. How do you see it as a judgement?mattrose wrote: Hannah, for instance, was made barren by God even though she was quite clearly a faithful believer amidst a fallen society.
Re: Romans 1:26-32 and reality?
Paidion wrote:My own belief is that homosexuals were NOT "born that way", but that homosexuality if learned behaviour.
Those teens and pre-teens to which you refer, Schoel, may have had homosexual experiences or influences at an early age.
That is what I had generally believed, but it is difficult to prove that everyone who struggles with same sex attraction has been so violated, especially as there are many who claim otherwise about themselves. I wonder if considering this as one of the potential triggers is wiser than considering it the sole cause.
Re: Romans 1:26-32 and reality?
Just because barrenness was one of the promised consequences to come upon Israel for disobedience and because 1 Samuel 1 follows up on the terrible events from the book of Judges.schoel wrote:On an aside, I always thought Hannah's barrenness was merely a timing issue. God was awaiting the right time to enable her to have children. How do you see it as a judgement?