Counting the cost of discipleship

Post by **_Anonymous** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:23 pm

I have a question about Luke 14:26-33

26 "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. 27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it-- 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.' 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

It probably doesn't change the overall meaning of the passage, but is the builder of the tower and the king meant to be the disciple, or is it God and the disciple is the building material or soldier in the kings army?

Post by **_Christopher** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 7:29 pm

Hi Michelle,

I believe the disciple is both the builder and the king in this analogy. I think Jesus is emphasizing the importance of counting the cost of following Him. It's all or nothing. The only way to finish, is to be 100% committed to Christ even being "faithful unto death".

That's how I see it anyways.

Post by **_Anonymous** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 8:09 pm

Thanks Christopher,

Like I said, I don't think it changes the meaning all that much either way; the disciple still needs consider carefully what it means to be a follower of Christ. It just makes a little more sense to me that Jesus is asking for disciples who are willing to be whatever He needs them to be because He has a work to accomplish.

I started thinking about this because the parallel passage in Matthew 10 says that a person is not worthy to be a disciple who doesn't hate his family, etc. And in this passage it says that he cannot be a disciple. If the disciple is the builder/king it appears that the message is "don't start what you may not be able to finish, because it's pretty embarrassing." If Jesus is the builder/king it seems like the message is "be willing to obey Me no matter what happens, otherwise you're not useful to me nor fit to be a disciple."

Post by **_Paidion** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:32 pm

I don't think it makes much difference whether we "cannot be Christ's disciple" or whether we "are not worthy of Him." I think that the one implies the other.

Post by **_SoaringEagle** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:50 pm

I have noticed that some think that being a believer and a disciple are one and the same thing. Though others think they are different. What I am wondering is if being a disciple, one who is worthy of Jesus, is costly, and you must be a disciple to go to heaven, then how do you fit Eph. 2:8 into that frame of thinking? We are saved by grace through faith, not of works it is the GIFT of God, not of yourselfs lest anyone boast. So is savation a free gift, or is it costly? Can you be a believer and not a disciple, or are they both the same thing?

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 11:32 pm

I think that the word disciple comes from the word discipline. And i believe the koine greek word for faith is the same word for faithfulness. When the word Christian was first used in Acts it was referring to the disciples and it meant follower of Christ. Another words not just believing Christ as the devil does but following him as a disciple does. I think overall the way Paul describes faith it's an active faith as he does in Titus 5 times i believe. One of Jesus's disciples wanted to return home to bury his father and Jesus said "let the dead bury the dead" which reminded me of Lot's wife looking back. I think Jesus wants disciples.

Post by **_Paidion** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:31 am

I have noticed that some think that being a believer and a disciple are one and the same thing. Though others think they are different.

In the beginning of Christianity, all who belonged to Christ were called "disciples". Later, they were called "Christians" also.

Acts 11:26 ...the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

So there is no difference between "disciples" and "Christians".

What I am wondering is if being a disciple, one who is worthy of Jesus, is costly, and you must be a disciple to go to heaven, then how do you fit Eph. 2:8 into that frame of thinking? We are saved by grace through faith, not of works it is the GIFT of God, not of yourselfs lest anyone boast.

We don't have to try to "fit it in". It fits naturally.

First, we must realize that primarily we are being saved from sin, not from hell. It's a real deliverance from sin, actual and not merely positional.

Secondly, salvation from sin is a process that will not be completed until Jesus puts on the finishing touches at the time of our resurrection when He returns (that is, if we are counted worthy to be among the overcomers in the first resurrection).

Thirdly, Eph. 2:8 is speaking about this same salvation. We are being saved from sin by Christ's enabling grace. This enabling grace is described in Titus 2. It's "not of works", since it does not proceed from self-effort. No one can boast that he overcame sin by his own choice and power. It is the "gift of God" since God has provided this way of salvation from sin though the death of His Son. But unless we repent, change our mind about our sinful way of living, and begin to deny ourselves, and forsake sin by His enabling grace, we cannot be his disciple --- we cannot be a Christian... we will be judged and cast into the Lake of Fire. This is costly indeed. It costs us our lives, which must be lived no longer for ourselves, but for Him.

II Corinthians 5:15
He died for alll, that those who live, might live no longer for themselves but for him, who for their sakes died and was raised.

So is savation a free gift, or is it costly?

It is a free gift. And it is costly.

Post by **_loaves** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:54 pm

Paidion wrote:We don't have to try to "fit it in". It fits naturally. First, we must realize that primarily we are being saved from sin, not from hell. It's a real deliverance from sin, actual and not merely positional.

I agree with Paidion. Hell should not be the primary focus, but it is definitely a side-benefit of salvation.

"He that believeth on me…out of his belly [innermost being] shall flow rivers of living water” (John 7:38).

Good works need to flow from within. And if works are not flowing from within, maybe the source got plugged up somewhere.