Hi all,
I understand salvation as being in covenant with God, in Christ. My question is, if one leaves covenant with God, does he become "un-born again"? Or is "born again" simply a metaphor? I've always understand regeneration as an actual, tangible thing. Can a person become "de-regenerated"?
I know that John says they went out from us, because they were never of us. In terms of regeneration, do we assume that a person who no longer walks with Christ was never regenerated, or that apostates can be born again, apostasize, and get born again, again? If they are indeed, born again (again), does this mean they weren't actually born again (again), but mere prodigals coming home? Or can a person actually become born again and again and again?
Arrghhh! Help. Thanks.
Born Again (Again)
-
_Anonymous
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:03 pm
Born Again (Again)
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
The first Scripture that comes to mind is...
Hebrews 6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
The second Scripture that comes to mind is...
2 Peter 2
20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."
Hebrews 6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
The second Scripture that comes to mind is...
2 Peter 2
20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Hemingway once said: 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for'
I agree with the second part (se7en)
I agree with the second part (se7en)
Although many texts have to be considered, one could be this:
It sounds like being cut-off is an un-saved state. And acceptance is "life from the dead". It goes on to say that Jews can be grafted back on, and that Gentiles should "fear" otherwise they too can be cut off. (After being grafted in!)
This grafting on of Gentiles into the Jewish "Messianic Kingdom" (aka the Church) is also spoken of by Paul in Ephesians 2-3.
A verse that seem to speak of reconciling a "lost brother":
Notice in the context that "For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?"Rom 11:13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
Rom 11:14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.
Rom 11:19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
Rom 11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
It sounds like being cut-off is an un-saved state. And acceptance is "life from the dead". It goes on to say that Jews can be grafted back on, and that Gentiles should "fear" otherwise they too can be cut off. (After being grafted in!)
This grafting on of Gentiles into the Jewish "Messianic Kingdom" (aka the Church) is also spoken of by Paul in Ephesians 2-3.
A verse that seem to speak of reconciling a "lost brother":
Notice if a "brother" wanders from the truth and is brought back, his soul is saved from death. If your saved or not you will eventually physically die, so saving your soul from death isn't physical, it's salvation.Jam 5:19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back,
Jam 5:20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
As I see it, regeneration is indeed a tangible reality, but being "born again" is simply one of several metaphors to speak of that reality. Like any metaphor, this one can be pressed beyond its reasonable or intended meaning.
In addition to the metaphor of rebirth, regeneration is likened to being "healed" (Luke 4:18/1 Pet.2:24-25); being "raised" from the dead (Eph.2:5-6/Col. 2:12-13); recovering from blindness (Luke 4:18/John 9:39); being "found"—like a lost sheep or coin (Luke 15); being "adopted" (Gal.4:5); being "washed," or "cleansed" (Tit.3:5); being "liberated" from bondage (Luke 4:18/John 8:32); being "renewed" (Tit.3:5/Heb.6:6); being "refreshed"—as by drinking water (John 4:14; 7:37-39); being "nourished," as with food (John 6:51, 54-58), etc.
Each of these metaphors communicates some aspect of the process or results of regeneration, but each can be pressed beyond reasonable limits.
Being "born again" is currently one of the favorite metaphors for regeneration among modern evangelicals. It is a good one, too. Like the metaphor of resurrection, it speaks of coming alive with a new life. Like that of adoption, it speaks of entering a new realationship with God, likened to that of a father and a son. Beyond these thing, however, it would not be safe to extrapolate from this metaphor.
Calvinists sometimes ask, once you've been born again, how can you ever be "un-born"? Perhaps you can't become "un-born" (you can't erase your history), but you can certainly cease to be alive, just as every person who is born on earth eventually dies—some by their own hands. The reality of birth provides no guarantee against suicide.
But can one then be "born again again?" Apart from the implications some see in Hebrews 6:4-6 (cited by Mattrose, above), I don't see why not. A person who is dead is still a candidate for resurrection (or rebirth). The point is, regeneration speaks of becoming a partaker of the divine life by the grace of God. One partakes of this life so long as one is abiding in Christ by faith (John 15:1-7). If one ceases to abide in Christ, that one ceases to draw upon the life and, consequently, withers and dies.
The passage in Romans 11 (cited by Sean, above)certainly indicates that a branch that has become disattached by unbelief can be reinstated if it does not continue in unbelief. The passage in James seems to say the same.
The case of those "who were not of us" and those of whom Christ says, "I never knew you," illustrates that there is certainly a class of backsliders who were never genuinely born again. However, the recognition of such a class does nothing to disprove the existence of another class of those who were truly attached to the Vine, and experiencing His life, prior to falling away.
In addition to the metaphor of rebirth, regeneration is likened to being "healed" (Luke 4:18/1 Pet.2:24-25); being "raised" from the dead (Eph.2:5-6/Col. 2:12-13); recovering from blindness (Luke 4:18/John 9:39); being "found"—like a lost sheep or coin (Luke 15); being "adopted" (Gal.4:5); being "washed," or "cleansed" (Tit.3:5); being "liberated" from bondage (Luke 4:18/John 8:32); being "renewed" (Tit.3:5/Heb.6:6); being "refreshed"—as by drinking water (John 4:14; 7:37-39); being "nourished," as with food (John 6:51, 54-58), etc.
Each of these metaphors communicates some aspect of the process or results of regeneration, but each can be pressed beyond reasonable limits.
Being "born again" is currently one of the favorite metaphors for regeneration among modern evangelicals. It is a good one, too. Like the metaphor of resurrection, it speaks of coming alive with a new life. Like that of adoption, it speaks of entering a new realationship with God, likened to that of a father and a son. Beyond these thing, however, it would not be safe to extrapolate from this metaphor.
Calvinists sometimes ask, once you've been born again, how can you ever be "un-born"? Perhaps you can't become "un-born" (you can't erase your history), but you can certainly cease to be alive, just as every person who is born on earth eventually dies—some by their own hands. The reality of birth provides no guarantee against suicide.
But can one then be "born again again?" Apart from the implications some see in Hebrews 6:4-6 (cited by Mattrose, above), I don't see why not. A person who is dead is still a candidate for resurrection (or rebirth). The point is, regeneration speaks of becoming a partaker of the divine life by the grace of God. One partakes of this life so long as one is abiding in Christ by faith (John 15:1-7). If one ceases to abide in Christ, that one ceases to draw upon the life and, consequently, withers and dies.
The passage in Romans 11 (cited by Sean, above)certainly indicates that a branch that has become disattached by unbelief can be reinstated if it does not continue in unbelief. The passage in James seems to say the same.
The case of those "who were not of us" and those of whom Christ says, "I never knew you," illustrates that there is certainly a class of backsliders who were never genuinely born again. However, the recognition of such a class does nothing to disprove the existence of another class of those who were truly attached to the Vine, and experiencing His life, prior to falling away.
Last edited by FAST WebCrawler [Crawler] on Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
Boy, I think I can weigh in here from my personal experence. After a divorce in 1988, my logical mind tried to find out why my 18 year old marrage failed. Never really living for God before that, I needed to find out if not including God in my life was one of the causes. By reading the Bible, I became convinced that there was a God that I was accountable to. I really believe I was born again.
Eight years later, after much fruit evident in my life, I regressed to smoking and drinking again even if I continued to pray weak prayers. I got caught up in the world again and was seeking worldly things.
Here I am years later and truly living for God and very much seeing Him work in my life and in my new marriage.
Was I not in the Lambs Book of Life while I was not actively living for Him? Somehow I don't think so. I was just off eating the slop in the pigpen. I was always a son, but my focus had been absconded by deceit from the devil for a time and I suffer loss because of it.
But the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob (my God) never let go of me. I find myself very much wanting to serve God and finding that He is active in my everyday life and I am so very much grateful.
Can a soul reject God in the end after being born again? Again, I think so. But those who remember the love of God and what He has done for us in the past will always return to Him and ask for forgiveness for their transgressions.
That's my witness. Our God is an awesone God and it is His will that all who seek Him will come to Him in the end.
Love all you out there that participate in the Bible Fellowship Forum.
What a great and wonderful gift.
Eight years later, after much fruit evident in my life, I regressed to smoking and drinking again even if I continued to pray weak prayers. I got caught up in the world again and was seeking worldly things.
Here I am years later and truly living for God and very much seeing Him work in my life and in my new marriage.
Was I not in the Lambs Book of Life while I was not actively living for Him? Somehow I don't think so. I was just off eating the slop in the pigpen. I was always a son, but my focus had been absconded by deceit from the devil for a time and I suffer loss because of it.
But the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob (my God) never let go of me. I find myself very much wanting to serve God and finding that He is active in my everyday life and I am so very much grateful.
Can a soul reject God in the end after being born again? Again, I think so. But those who remember the love of God and what He has done for us in the past will always return to Him and ask for forgiveness for their transgressions.
That's my witness. Our God is an awesone God and it is His will that all who seek Him will come to Him in the end.
Love all you out there that participate in the Bible Fellowship Forum.
What a great and wonderful gift.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
See Ephesians 5:14. I believe it supports the same idea Sean referred to in Romans 11:15 but in Ephesians Paul is addressing the church in particular: if the "born again" die (spiritually) there is hope - God will "raise them from the dead" if they repent. I believe the passage in Hebrews 6:4-6 refers only to human agency; nothing is impossible for God.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A Berean