"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess the Lord

[_Rick_C]

I got: coffee...

Backing up some for Paul's context:

1 Cor 15:12 (NASB) Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

Paul was teaching that there will be a resurrection and elaborates on it in the chapter. He also alludes to other "final" things, such as the coming of Christ, the last judgment, the turning over of the kingdom to the Father, the judgment of saints and sinners alike, and the beginning of "eternity".

Re: 1 Cor 15,
20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

V. 20: Paul reaffirms the resurrection of Jesus which is likened to a first harvesting of crops.

V. 21 (compare & contrast): Death entered into human history by the one man, Adam. By another man, Jesus, the resurrection from the dead had its beginning in human history. One brought death, the other life beyond death.

V. 22 (compare & contrast): Adam's disobedience introduced death which is experienced by all. Adam was as a "corporate head" of humanity in this sense. In the same way and as another corporate head; Christ, introduced eternal life into history by being raised from the dead.

V. 23: Paul specifies who will be resurrected to the eternal life that is in Jesus, the first to be raised from the dead. They are the "second fruits" -- the Christians "those who are Christ's at His coming". They, and they alone, are those who will be made alive unto eternal life.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul doesn't specifically mention the resurrection of the ungodly in this chapter but he talks about their judgment. He does say that it was by Christ that resurrection was initiated into human history. This chapter is primarily teachings about the resurrection of Christ and of believers.

In the same book Paul demonstrates that not everyone will "be made alive unto eternal life":

1 Cor 6:9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

However, Paul does say a few things about the final judgment and destiny of God's enemies in:

1 Cor 15:24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

At the Second Coming of Jesus, and before the kingdom is handed over the Father, every enemy of God will have been abolished. Every evil "rule, authority, and power"---and all who have aligned themselves with them will be put under subjection, judged, and destroyed. God will not "be all in all" until this is accomplished.

The means by which this will be done is the final judgment where all will be judged by Christ and rewarded according to their deeds: a. Believers---the inheritors of the kingdom---will receive rewards for obeying God which includes believing the Gospel. b. Unbelievers---the enemies of God who have no inheritance in His kingdom---will be rewarded in accordance with their evil, including their disbelief in the Gospel.

Therefore, the universalist interpretation 1 Cor 15:24 is incorrect, imo, because it:
a. lifts the verse out of context
b. reads 15:24b in a "wooden" & literalistic (incorrect) sense
c. doesn't take into account what the chapter teaches
d. [and what it doesn't teach] which has to be found elsewhere
e. doesn't acknowledge the fuller teaching of the rest of the book, and
f. doesn't take into account the fuller teaching of the Bible

In friendly debate, I wonder where's Danny?
Rick

[Guest]

22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Without a presupposition what does this sound like Paul is saying?



1 Cor 15:24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.



Abolishing all rule,authority and power means abolishing all rebelliousness to God or abolishing all evil.
Therefore where do we see eternal torment/separation here? And in the end God will be "all in all."
If people continue eternally in hell how is evil abolished, how is God "all in all"?
IMO in the end either "all" of humanity will be reconciled or the ones who can't or won't will be abolished and God will be "all in all" who remain.
"For he must reign until he puts all enemies under his feet" This continues in the LOF , IMO and here is where evil will be abolished and the final call is made "The Spirit and Bride say, whosoever thirsts come and drink from the water of life" Rev 22.17.

[_Rick_C]

Hi Bob,

1. I think Rick pointed it out better than I could. (Thanks Rick!).

2. The issue is about the "wrath to come" as compared to the "wrath being revealed from Heaven" against all ungodliness. There appears to be two aspects of God's wrath.

3. Death also in the Bible has at least two aspects; one is of the body in this present age; and the other from the presence of God (spiritually and permanently) in the age to come for the ungodly, Satan and all fallen angels in the LOF. This is called the "second death". I agree, whether godly or ungodly, all will be raised. The issue is one of seperation.

1. Well, yer welcome (if I saved you a post, some typing/verse lookups),

2. I can't agree more about this two-fold aspect. And I didn't mention it to Todd but though I don't agree with his interpretations; I've had to think once again about the present reality of God's wrath as well as what it means for the future (Thanks for that, Todd).

3. Many if not most eschatological themes in the Bible have a two-fold "already/not yet" them behind them. Or should I say inherent within them? And how much of the Bible is "eschatological"? A LOT of it!

My Dad, a simple minded but wise man, used to say re: "being born again":

If yer born once, you die twice. If yer born twice, you die once.

Pretty solid theology if you ask me....
gtg & get ready for church,
Rick

[Guest]

Todd,

1. Rom 1:18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

This is very plain teaching that God's wrath is being poured out now against the ungodly (the living).

2. Mat 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.

This is one of many judgment scriptures in the New Testament that states that we will be "rewarded according to our works." This mentions specifically that it will happen before some of those listening would die.

3. Some have argued that this is talking about 70AD, but there is nothing in the surrounding context to make that conclusion.

4. I believe that the judgment and pouring out of God's wrath began when Christ took His seat at God's right hand and will come to a dramatic conclusion when He returns, but is finished before the resurrection. I also believe that God's wrath (punishment) is poured out upon the living, not the dead.

5. Rick_C wrote:
Not all of the living are subject to the wrath of God, is why I am asking.

You replied:
This has been argued by others (TK, Homer, Derek, Steve7150). Homer specifically likes to mention Ted Turner and Hugh Hefner. My answer to this is that we have have no way of knowing what the Lord is doing in lives of these men. What we can see from our vantage point is very limited.

1. Incorrect. It says God's wrath is "revealed" from heaven---not "poured out." The Greek word apokalupto indicates God's wrath has been "disclosed, made known, uncovered, layed [out in the] open, and/or unveiled." You can't get "poured out" from apokalupto.

2. Verse 28: Jesus specifically says that some of His hearers would not die before they saw Him coming in His kingdom; that they would be eyewitnesses of His kingdom's inauguration. (This is what this verse is about).

Verse 27: Jesus speaks of His future coming "in the glory of His Father" at final judgment.

3. Some passages are clear in and of themselves. Others need to be compared: "Scripture with Scripture."

1 Cor 15, (NASB)
20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

1 Co 15:24 and Mat 16:27 refer to the same event of the final judgment which will happen in the future at the end of the age. Also, there are quite a few more events that relate to 1 Cor 15:24; the final judgment is but one of them.

4. There are many problems with this statement, imo, based in part from what I'm posting in this post. You quote passages and "bold" sections of verses as proofs of what you think they say. This, to me, is not responsible hermeneutics unless compatibility with the overall teaching of Scripture can be demonstrated. You seem to "downplay" context and "bold" what you like. Earlier you bolded 1 Cor 15:22b to support your views. I may post how you were in error, imo, on that later (as I do not believe the verse, the chapter, or Paul taught universalism or meant in the text what you think it does).

5. Christians are not subjects of God's wrath.

Rom 5:8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

1 Thess 1:10and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

Christians are both currently rescued from the wrath of God, and will also ultimately be saved from it. Romans 5:8 and 1 Thessalonians applies only to believers.

5. The Bible teaches that final judgment -- which includes the pouring out of God's wrath -- is being withheld till the coming of Christ. Though God's wrath against ungodliness is revealed in this present age; He has deferred final judgment in order that people can repent and escape the wrath to come--through believing the Gospel.

Coffee time,
Rick

Rick,

1. You are ignoring the entire context going through verse 32. It tells us specifically how God is 'revealing' his wrath in the lives of the ungodly. It says that God gives them over to uncleanness (vs 24), vile passions (vs 26), and a debased mind (vs. 28 ). It is very clear that God is indeed pouring out His wrath as described here.

2. I agree with your statement, but it does not contradict what I have said. Christ is not only King but Judge also. Look specifically at verse 27:

Matt 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

This seems plain to me that judgment is concurrent with the coming of His Kingdom.

3. I disagree with what you have stated here. Firstly, look at this verse:

Matt 28:18
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Then look at this...

1 Cor 15:24
then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has put down all rule and all authority and power.

This verse is saying that in the end Christ will surrender all rule and authority and power to God when He hands over the Kingdom to Him. God gave Christ all rule and authority and power when raised Him from the dead; in the end Christ gives it back. It's not really talking about judgment other than it is done. This is in perfect agreement with my view.

4. Nothing really to comment about your statement. You just say you disagree.

5. I have said also that those who follow Christ in faith are delivered from God's wrath. So I guess we are in agreement here.

Todd

[_Rick_C]

Hello Todd,

1. You are ignoring the entire context going through verse 32. It tells us specifically how God is 'revealing' his wrath in the lives of the ungodly. It says that God gives them over to uncleanness (vs 24), vile passions (vs 26), and a debased mind (vs. 28 ). It is very clear that God is indeed pouring out His wrath as described here.

I've done no such thing. I made it clear what apokalupto does and does not mean. One thing's for certain: It does not mean "poured out."

Here's what Paul said God has done to the people under consideration:
Rom 1:28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,

The Greek for "gave them over" indicates God allowed them to continue in their own devices. Rather than pouring out His wrath He essentially ignored them and let them be. They quit acknowledging Him and He returned the favor in kind, permitting them to become reprobates. To use modern idioms: God "gave up on them"; saying, in effect, "Have it YOUR way"; "You go your way, I'll go mine", etc.

In Scripture the pouring out of God's wrath has to do with His judgment of sinners and their paying the full penalty of the consequences. As an example, the unrepentant Sodom and Gomorrha, who received the outpouring of His wrath. They were destroyed, not "delivered over to continue to do as they were doing." There are many other similar examples in the Bible of the outpouring of God's wrath.

"Letting someone be" and "Letting someone have-it" are completely different things! (though both involve judgment).

2. I agree with your statement, but it does not contradict what I have said. Christ is not only King but Judge also. Look specifically at verse 27:

Matt 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

This seems plain to me that judgment is concurrent with the coming of His Kingdom.

I've already posted on Matt 16:27-28. We disagree about a. the final judgment {which I see in both Matt 16:27 and 1 Cor 15:24} and b. the witnessing of the inaugural of the kingdom {Matt 16:28}.

3. I disagree with what you have stated here. Firstly, look at this verse:

Matt 28:18
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Then look at this...

No thanks: First I will look at the entire verse in context.

Matt 28
18Then Jesus came up and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

It is by reason of Jesus' position of authority that His disciples are to ("therefore") go and teach and preach to those who are God's enemies to obey His commands. At the present time not all are obedient to His rule though He is the King of kings. However, all are subject to His judgment(s). Till He returns, as I said earlier, God is deferring final judgment...in order that the full number of those who will be saved will be saved. The Church Age is a Grace Age....

1 Cor 15:24
then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has put down all rule and all authority and power.

This verse is saying that in the end Christ will surrender all rule and authority and power to God when He hands over the Kingdom to Him. God gave Christ all rule and authority and power when raised Him from the dead; in the end Christ gives it back. It's not really talking about judgment other than it is done. This is in perfect agreement with my view.

It appears to me you're skipping verses, picking and choosing them, and selecting only "portions" at random to support your views.

THIS VERSE specifically says Christ will hand the Kingdom over to God "when He has put down all rule and all authority and power." When is this "when"? It is chronologically AFTER every enemy rule, power, and authority has been judged and destroyed by Christ.

4. Nothing really to comment about your statement. You just say you disagree.

5. I have said also that those who follow Christ in faith are delivered from God's wrath. So I guess we are in agreement here.

4. I went ahead and offered a brief exegesis of the pertinent section of 1 Cor 15 with which you disagree....

5. Finally, we agree on something!
Rick

[Guest]

Jewish conceptions of an "eternal judgement, heaven or hell" indeed are rare ideas in the Bible, but they are there. Let me ask you this; since "eternal judgement" is a foreign idea in your view of God and the Bible, why do you think Jesus devoted more time talking about it than Heaven?
And, if there were no previous ideas of an afterlife in Jewish thought, then
Paul's commentary in ICor 15, or Jesus' argument with the Saducces in Matt 22, doesn't make much sense. How about Daniel 12?
Using your rationale Steve, what good reason do we have to believe in an "eternal heaven" much less an "eternal Hell" ?



Bob, First thing is i think Jesus spoke plenty about heaven, how many times did he say "the kingdom of God is like"? However he certainly spoke often about judgement and it will be eternal but your view which is the traditional view is unmerciful and God is a merciful God.
Suppose you know 2 people, one is a bible believer and servant of Christ for 50 years, but a tragedy happens and in the last year of his life he falls away. The second has a promiscous life style sleeping with as many women as possible. He contracts Aids and figures he will die anyway so he redoubles his efforts to sleep with women not caring if they catch the disease from him. On his deathbed he sincerely accepts Christ and dies a minute later.
Taking your view to it's logical end the second man being a believer for one minute of his life spends eternity with Christ and the first who was a believer for 50 years spends eternity in hell.
You can rationalize till the cows come home but there is no justice in this and God is just and God is merciful and he knows we are spiritually and emotionally weak beings whom He allows to be influenced by the devil.
The purpose of judgement is this:

"When thy judgements are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will LEARN righteousness." Isa 26.9
" In that day the deaf shall hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness" Isa 29.18

[Guest]

Rick,

Re: Rom 1:18-32
Even though Paul says that God is revealing His wrath against the ungodly, you seem to be saying that God is doing nothing. That makes no sense. Why would Paul go into this long explanation about God's wrath if He's not doing anything? When Paul says 'the wrath of God is revealed against the ungodly' he explains how when he says that 'God gives them over' to uncleaness, vile passions, and a debased mind. This is 'God in action' in the lives of these sinners bringing upon them the full measure of their unrighteous ways and the consequences thereof.

But why does God do this? You seem to view God's wrath as retribution against the disobedient. I view it as a tool to bring about repentance in the life of the sinner.

Now God "commands all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30). Many times a person will only come to repentance when they reach 'rock bottom' in their lives. For those who don't repond to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, God sends them to 'rock bottom' by allowing them to wallow in the mire of their own sinfulness. Think of the prodigal son. His Father allowed him to participate in 'riotous living' and in the depth of his error the son repented. This is how I view Romans 1. It is not "God does nothing" as you seem to say; it is "God in action" calling His children to repentance.

Also, I notice you made no comment about Rom 13:1-5 which speaks of the governing authorities. Here we are plainly told that:

Rom 13:4-5
4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake.

When the Bible says that "he rewards each according to his works, whether good or bad" this scripture tells us that one way in which that is accomplished is through the governing authorities as ministers of God's wrath. But this too is ultimately to call us to repentance.

John the Baptist warned those who heard his preaching about the 'wrath to come' saying that Christ would baptize with the Holy Spirit and Fire, and that He would gather the wheat and burn the chaff. He called on everyone to repent, just as God does. John was not speaking of something that was thousands of years away, but something that was 'at hand'. It began when the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Day of Pentecost. God uses all measures to call His children to repentance; preaching, conviction of the Holy Spirit, allowing our own sin to bring us to despair, the governing authorities, etc. This is what John was describing. This is the 'wrath to come' of which John spoke.

I will agree that the scriptures also describe wrath which is to be executed at Christ's return (2 Thess 1:8-9) describing it as "everlasting destruction." This IMO is wrath against 'the living'. Just as those in Christ who are "alive and remain unto the coming" will meet the Lord in the air, those living who are disobedient will suffer wrath. I fully expect it will be a terrifying event for those who suffer it, and it will result in the destruction of the flesh, but ultimately Christ reconciled the world unto God and their spirit will return to God. After the resurrection of the unjust they will all be bowing and praising God.

One other thing. When Paul says:

1 Cor 15:26
The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

This is speaking of the resurrection of the unjust. Everyone who has ever lived is resurrected - there is no more death; death is destroyed. Since death is the 'last enemy' all of God's other enemies (e.g., sin and disobedience) have already been destroyed. This clears the way for every knee to bow and every tongue to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Todd

[Guest]

Hello Steve7150,

quote: " your view which is the traditional view is unmerciful and God is a merciful God".

You know doubt have read Ecclesiastes, that there is a time for everything, "done under the sun". It is my understanding from Scripture, that includes our time to come repentance and salvation. There is nothing beyond this time I know of from the Word, that would indicate otherwise.
As CS Lewis put it, in the end there will be only two kinds of people. Those who say to God, "thy will be done", and those to whom God says; "thy will be done". I do wish I could share yours, Todd's, and Paidion's view with regard to the finality and eternality of God's Final Judgement upon the "unrighteous".

I do agree with you that over the centuries, there has been much "spiritual
abuse" on the issue of Judgement perpetrated by the RCC and many other non-Catholic bodies. However, facts are facts. Jesus and the Apostles leave no doubt (at least in my mind presently) that it would be indeed a "fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God". To level a charge against a particular "Orthodox" view which in your opinion views God as both unjust and unmerciful, carries with it the burden of proof.
Most of what I have read in several posts touching on "universal salvation" are quite frankly imo, taken entirely out of context.

Not one person here has addressed the issue and purpose of the Flood of Noah I've mentioned in earlier posts. Was God being "unjust" in destroying whole civilizations? Did the Flood "change" the sinful nature of Man? Was God being unjust when He destroyed Sodom and Gohmorah?
Remember that Abraham challenged God on the matter; "will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked"?

Where is it written God owes us mercy? Where is it written God owes us eternal life in the Kingdom of His Christ? He does owe us His complete Justice. Do you desire the complete and absolute Justice of God?
I don't. I will never ask God for His Justice. I know what it means.

As far as your 2 person analogy goes, I have but one answer. The God I worship will always judge righteously. That's His place. Not mine.
Here I think Jesus application not to judge others is appropriate:
' do not judge or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you".. Matt 7: 1-2 NIV.

[Guest]

Hello Todd,

As you have noted, I have mentioned Ted Turner and Hugh Heffner as examples of enemies of God who have not suffered the wrath of God being "poured out upon them" during their long lives of rebellion. Perhaps if you were to point out to them how they have suffered so mightily for their sin they might repent, but if you did I am confident they would reflect upon their lives and say "If this is the wrath of God, its not so bad at all"! I imagine they are rather enjoying it. How effective is this wrath of God in bringing about repentance if it is not noticed?

And what of those poor martyrs, torn apart by beasts, burned as living torches, who died cruel deaths for entertainment. Why did God "pour out His wrath" on them? Your gospel isn't much as far as "good news" goes.

My late sister was a devoted Christian from her youth, yet suffered one terrible thing after another her entire life. Must have had God's wrath poured out on her for something not noticeable to those who knew her.

[Guest]

Where is it written God owes us mercy? Where is it written God owes us eternal life in the Kingdom of His Christ? He does owe us His complete Justice. Do you desire the complete and absolute Justice of God?
I don't. I will never ask God for His Justice. I know what it means.

As far as your 2 person analogy goes, I have but one answer. The God I worship will always judge righteously. That's His place. Not mine.
Here I think Jesus application not to judge others is appropriate:


Bob, I agree that of course God has every right to judge anything including nations and invoke destruction if it is his will. And i agree God owes us absolutely nothing.
But destruction is entirely different then living for eternity in hell as a punishment for a finite period of sin on earth.
God in the OT revealed that his justice was equal to the crime as in an "eye for an eye." Another words the punishment fit the crime yet in the example of the two people i gave, you really can't explain any justice in it except to say you leave it to God.
It's also my attitude to leave it to God but since we are told to love Him with our minds and since He gave us His Word i think He wants us to seek out answers from what He gave us.
So it's not that God owes us mercy, it's that it's part of His character to be merciful. God is love, love fulfills the law, the weightier parts of the law are justice,mercy and faithfulness. Matt 23.23