Did God die on the Cross?

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
Post Reply
User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Did God die on the Cross?

Post by Paidion » Sun Dec 28, 2014 5:02 pm

Homer wrote:Considering two scriptures that might seem contradictory:

Philippians 2:5-7 (NASB)

5. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6. who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7. but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.


Colossians 1:19 (NASB)

19. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,


It seems to me that when The Word became flesh He laid aside His position, prerogatives, and power and took on the limitations of the human flesh. But He was still God - God in the flesh, the "fullness dwelt in Him". Then when He died on the cross He, as God, experienced death as we do and His spirit went to be with God (the Father) where I believe ours go to await resurrection.
Here is the way I explain this apparent contradiction. Jesus emptied Himself of His divine attributes and became fully human, and retained only one aspect of his pre-incarnate condition, and that one aspect was His identity as the Son of God. Having been emptied of His divinity, Jesus nevertheless was filled with the fullness of God the Father, while He walked this earth. All the fullness of the Father dwelt in Him. This doesn't imply that Jesus WAS the Father, or was, in any way, the only true God. Only the Father was the only true God as Jesus affirmed, and as His words concerning that fact were recorded in John 17:3. But rather God dwelt in Him by extending His Personality or Spirit into Him. If Jesus had been God while on earth, He could have performed miracles. But no, He said that He could do NOTHING of Himself.

Now that Jesus, after the Father raised Him from death, became a life-giving Spirit (1 Cor 15:45), He and the Father dwell in all true Christians or disciples of Christ. This They do by extending Their Personality or Spirit into the children of God. This is the same way that the Father dwelt in Jesus while He was on earth.
It seems to me that if Jesus is seen as nothing more than another man when He died on the cross, the atonement is diminished. But God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them,[ 2 Corinthians 5:19 (NASB)]
Thus God, at the historic moment of Jesus' death on the cross, was reconciling the world to Himself. Paul identifies Christ's death on the cross with God's work. He reconciles, He internalized the punishment for our sins, He paid our debt. How could the death of another human be of infinite efficacy?
I, for one, certainly have not claimed that Jesus was "nothing more than another man", when He died on the cross. I have affirmed repeatedly that while He was on earth, He retained His identity as the Son of God. Yet He was fully human. It seems to me that if Jesus had been more than human when He died, that is if He had been "God" or had not emptied Himself of His divinity, THAT would have diminished the atonement. For only a perfect, sinless, fully human person could have provided the sacrifice necessary to deliver man from sin. If such a sacrifice had to be GOD (as you seem to be saying), then why didn't GOD do it ages ago? He could have sacrificed Himself in some way to provide salvation, couldn't He have? But no! It took the second Adam (or second Man), to do it. The first Adam (or first man) failed through sin. Nothing less than a perfect, sinless, fully human person could provide salvation through his death.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

BrotherAlan
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:42 am

Re: Did God die on the Cross?

Post by BrotherAlan » Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:53 am

Okay, there's a lot of stuff going on here...so, while the original question is, "Did God die on the Cross?", I think it fitting to tie this discussion in to the current celebration of Christmas. And, so, to this end, I will simply ask the following: When that (glorious and blessed) virgin, Mary, gave birth to Jesus, to WHOM did she give birth? When she was looking down upon Him in the stable at Bethlehem, was she looking down on the PERSON of the Word (the Son of God), or upon some other person (and, if so, what other person)? And, if it was the Word upon whom she was looking after she gave birth to Him, can we then say that she gave birth to the Word, that her Son was the Word (and that she is the Mother of the Word)? And, if so, can we not also simply say that that Son of hers-- i.e., the Word of God-- died on the Cross? And, if the Word of God is God-- and, according to John 1:1, He is-- then can we not also say that God died on the Cross?

Now, it is clear that Mary gave birth to a human baby Boy-- women only give birth to human beings, not to creatures of another nature-- but, if this baby Boy was indeed also the Person of the Word, and if the Word was/is God, and God cannot cease to be God (for One Who is "God" Who can also cease to be "God" is not really "God", for the ability to lose the divinity would be an imperfection, the possession of which imperfection is antithetical to the very notion of the divinity), then would it not follow that Mary's Baby Boy was both human and divine at the same time? Can we not say that she gave birth to one Person having both of those natures united in His very Person? And, then, if that is so, again, can we not say that, since Mary's Baby Boy was God, and He grew up and eventually died on the Cross (prior to rising again, of course), God died on the Cross? But, if that is so, in which nature did He die-- the divine or the human? Well, it was obviously in the human nature that the Word experienced death-- for that is what witnesses saw...and the divine nature cannot die. And, so, it was a real human being who died on the Cross, and therefore He was able to offer this Sacrifice to the Father for all men; and, since He was/is truly divine, He is able to be a mediator to the Father for us. If He is only God, and not man, He cannot represent us before God, and so cannot save us; if He is only man, and not God, He can represent us before God, and so cannot save us. He must, therefore, be both, God and man, one Person having both natures, in order to be our Savior...and that He is, since He is both the Only-Begotten Son of God and the (only) Son of Mary...thanks be to God!

In Christ, the God-Man,
BrotherAlan
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."

dizerner

Re: Did God die on the Cross?

Post by dizerner » Mon Dec 29, 2014 5:26 am

[user account removed]
Last edited by dizerner on Mon Feb 20, 2023 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BrotherAlan
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:42 am

Re: Did God die on the Cross?

Post by BrotherAlan » Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:55 am

Dear Dizerner,
Thank you for your complements on my writing-- and the same back to you! Very good, contemplative questions you raise here!

I would say that Christ, in suffering in His human nature, suffered in both His Body and His Soul-- although, it was only His Body that died (I believe that you are correct when you say that we, too, when we die, suffer death in our bodies, while our souls, being immortal, live on...to be united again, of course, to our bodies at the end of time at the general resurrection of the dead). The sufferings of His Body are obvious; but, He also suffered in His soul in that He experienced the mental and emotional pains that coincided with His Sacred and Sorrowful Passion (eg., He was sorrowful, He experienced a feeling of abandonment by God, He recognized the abandonment of His disciples, etc., etc., etc.). For this reason, He is a Man-- a God-Man-- to Whom we can look when we, too, suffer not only physically, but also emotionally, as well. However, again, in His Divine nature, which He continued to possess on the Cross and which He could never not-possess (for He is, forever, God, and, since His incarnation in the virginal womb of Mary-- may she blessed by all generations!-- He is forever the God-Man), He did not die nor suffer; for, the Divine Nature, since it is Divine (and, thus, impassible and immortal) can never die nor suffer (else, it would not really be divine).

I hope that makes some sense!

God bless...

In Christ, the God-Man,
BrotherAlan
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."

User avatar
jriccitelli
Posts: 1317
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:14 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: Did God die on the Cross?

Post by jriccitelli » Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:12 pm

"Only the Father was the only true God as Jesus affirmed" (Paidion, above)
I guess that explains your best reason for why God didn't die on the cross. I think that is another thread, as it would be understood by the OP that Jesus is God is a premise. So, Jesus is God, would be the premise. Otherwise the question is irrelevant.
When she was looking down upon Him in the stable at Bethlehem, was she looking down on the PERSON of the Word (BroAlan)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind (John 1:1) She was looking at flesh and blood. He was in the beginning, and through Him all things were made (including His human nature). Human beings were not in the beginning. So what Mary (bless her name) was looking at was God in human flesh. Mary provided the human side, and Jesus was the God side of Himself. Jesus did not come ‘from’ Mary: He came from above. And in Him was The Life: the life never left Him. ‘The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us’ (John 1:14) Jesus can take on human nature, but Jesus said He came from above and always existed. So He did not begin ‘existing’ at the time He was born.
‘… (was) she looking down on the PERSON of the Word (the Son of God), or upon some other person (and, if so, what other person)?’
She was looking upon that 'person' that always existed. Before Abraham existed, before Mary existed.
‘And, if so, can we not also simply say that that Son of hers-- i.e., the Word of God-- died on the Cross?’
Not really: The Word never dies:
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth; but the word of our God shall stand forever (Isaiah 40:8)
So is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it(Isaiah 55:11)
'for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God... 'All people are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of the Lord endures forever" (1Peter 1:23-25)
But, if that is so, in which nature did He die-- the divine or the human? (Alan)
‘Therefore, we know: the God side of the hypostatic union cannot die (and we also stick to the law of non-contradiction, noted by Alan) (from my post from somewhere in this thread)
‘And, so, it was a real human being who died on the Cross’ (Alan)
Totally agree, but scripture does not say, nor does it need to be said: His spirit died. Nothing says Spirit nor spirit dies on a cross, or on earth, the spirit goes to the grave, Hades, or Paradise.

Scripture only needs the death of Christ in the body, to satisfy the sacrifice of atonement. Scripture does not demand Christ die a 'spiritual' death. Scripture only speaks of His death in the flesh and blood, and the necessity of His blood poured out on the alter:
'Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil' (Hebrews 2:14 NASB) ‘And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. 22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness' (Hebrews 9:22) ‘Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh(Hebrews 10:19) ‘But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace’ (Eph 2:13-15) Amen

BrotherAlan
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:42 am

Re: Did God die on the Cross?

Post by BrotherAlan » Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:54 pm

Dear jriccitelli,
Thanks for your reply!

I actually think we are pretty close to agreement on this thing (if not actually there), and I will point out a few things (and perhaps a few more distinctions) to make this clear.

First, in response to statement that the Blessed Virgin Mary was looking upon the Person of the Word when she was looking upon her Son in Bethlehem, you wrote:
She was looking at flesh and blood. He was in the beginning, and through Him all things were made (including His human nature). Human beings were not in the beginning. So what Mary (bless her name) was looking at was God in human flesh. Mary provided the human side...: He came from above. And in Him was The Life: the life never left Him. ‘The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us’ (John 1:14) Jesus can take on human nature, but Jesus said He came from above and always existed. So He did not begin ‘existing’ at the time He was born.
I completely agree with this statement and would--- I hope-- be willing to die for these fundamental truths of the Christian Faith which you happily affirmed here! (Given the errors and heresies surrounding these very points you bring up here, reading these lines gave joy to my "ears"-- so thank you for affirming this central truths of the Christian Faith!) Yes, indeed, as you stated, "Mary (bless her name) was looking at was God in human flesh." Bravo-- well put! And, furthermore, you added, "Mary provided the human side..." Again, exactly! (That is, Mary provided Him with His human body, while God-- that is, the Trinity-- provided Jesus with His human soul by infusing it into His Body; as the Trinity infuses each human soul into each human body that exists). And, finally, you add, "And in Him was The Life: the life never left Him. ‘The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us’ (John 1:14) Jesus can take on human nature, but Jesus said He came from above and always existed. So He did not begin ‘existing’ at the time He was born." Again, right on, I say! In particular, that last statement-- "He did not begin 'existing' at the time He was born"-- is exactly true; Jesus is eternal, since Jesus is the Word of God, Who is God, Who is eternal.

Now, there were a couple other statements you made which I removed from the above quote, as I want to offer some clarifications/distinctions on these statements...You stated:
...and Jesus was the God side of Himself. Jesus did not come ‘from’ Mary...
First, with regard to the statement, "Jesus was the God side of Himself". I would simply say that when we say, "Jesus", we are simply referring to the PERSON of the Word (thus, the following Names/Words ALL refer to the same "thing", i.e., to the same PERSON: "Jesus", "the Word", "the Son", "Christ", "the Second Person of the Trinity"...ALL of those words/Names stand for the exact same "thing", i.e., the exact same Divine Person). With this in mind, the second part of your statement, "Jesus did not come 'from' Mary," I think needs to be clarified. The clarification that needs to be made, I believe, is this: "Jesus, in His Divine Nature, did not come 'from' Mary." That is true; but I think the clarification is needed because, since the Person of Jesus, in His human nature, came from Mary, it is true to say that "Jesus (in His human nature) came from Mary." In other words, we can say this: "Jesus came from God, AND Jesus came from Mary." The first affirmation refers to Jesus' eternal generation (in His Divine Nature) from God the Father, the second affirmation refers to Jesus' temporal generation (in His human nature) from Mary.

There were some other things I was going to say, but I want to go play some soccer now! But, basically, I think we are pretty close to agreement on this (if not actually there): the sum of my position is, again, that when we say, "Jesus", we are referring to one single PERSON having two natures; and, also, we can use the word "God" to stand for Jesus (since Jesus is, truly, God). And, thus-- and this is important-- whatever is truly said about Christ acting in just one of these natures can be truly affirmed of Him as the acting Person (although, if we are referring to something that He did in His human nature, it might be a good idea to explicitly state that He did this in His human nature). And, thus, we can say that, "Jesus created the world, Jesus is eternal," AND, "Jesus was born of Mary, Jesus died," and, since Jesus is God, we can also then say, "God (that is, the God-Man, Jesus) was born of Mary, God died (in His human nature)."

I hope that makes some sense...God bless!

In Christ, the Eternal Son of God and the Son of Mary,
BrotherAlan
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."

dizerner

Re: Did God die on the Cross?

Post by dizerner » Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:01 am

[user account removed]
Last edited by dizerner on Mon Feb 20, 2023 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Did God die on the Cross?

Post by Paidion » Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:44 pm

The whole problem evaporates when it is recognized that Jesus did not have a divine nature WHILE ON EARTH. In being born, He emptied Himself of that (the divine self-emptying—Philippians 2:6,7). and became 100% human. While He lived as a human being, He trusted completely in the Father to work THROUGH Him. After His resurrection God glorified Him and He again possessed the divine nature as the Son of God, again becoming a life-giving Spirit, while still retaining His immortal resurrection body.

But nevertheless, why do some think that God cannot suffer? Does He not suffer immeasurable pain in His Great Heart, when He sees the suffering man brings upon Himself and others, when He sees the atrocities committed by some people against others? Does not Yahweh (or "THE LORD") grieve about man's wrongdoing? The notion that God is impassable is derived from philosophy, or from theology derived from philosophy, and not from the Bible.

Genesis 6:6 And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.

Psalm 78:40 How often they rebelled against him in the wilderness and grieved him in the desert!

Isaiah 63:10 But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

BrotherAlan
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:42 am

Re: Did God die on the Cross?

Post by BrotherAlan » Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:20 pm

I'll have to address Paidion's response later...for now, just a quick reply to what dizerner wrote (addressed to myself):
Thanks for your answer. Would I be correct to think you see Christ's Divine Nature as not truly incarnated (part of or within his body), but a separate nature altogether? So there was the human nature, inside the body of Christ, and the divine nature, which encompasses all the universe, outside of Christ's body?
First, by human nature, I mean the nature of those “things” (i.e., human beings) which are composed of a 1.) human body and 2.) human soul (for, a man, a human being is a composite of a human body and human soul). Now, Christ's human nature is truly human-- i.e., He has a true human body and soul. Christ's Divine Nature is a distinct nature from his human nature, but it is united to that human nature in the very PERSON (“hypostasis”) of the Word (thus, this union is called a “hypostatic” union). I am repeatedly stressing PERSON ("hypostasis" in Greek) here to note that this is "where" the union of the human nature and the Divine nature of Christ takes place. This is opposed to the idea, for example, that the union of these two natures takes place in the natures themselves; this is not the case. For, among other things, this would produce some sort of "third" nature, neither human nor divine; but, rather, some sort of “mixture” of a human and the Divine nature. But, rather, again, the union of the human nature of Christ and His Divine Nature takes place in His very Person, the very PERSON of the Word...and, so, the PERSON of the Word became Incarnate, meaning that there was/is a union of the (uncreated) Divine nature of the Word, and His (created) human nature in His Person, the Person of the Word.

So, that said, to answer your (dizerner’s) questions: do I see Christ's Divine nature as a separate nature from the human nature? Well, I would not say that Christ’s Divine nature is “separate” from His human nature; rather, I would say the Divine nature of Christ and His human nature are distinct natures. I would avoid saying that they are “separate”, though, since, again, they are united together in the PERSON of the Word (and so that is why we can say the Divine PERSON of the Word became Incarnate; "The Word became flesh...") The closest comparison we have to this sort of union in our experience is probably the union of our bodies and our souls: a man’s body and his soul are distinct, with distinct natures, yet, so long as the man is alive, the man’s body and soul are not “separate” but, rather, are intimately united in the man’s person. Something like this is “going on” here with the union of Christ’s Divine and human natures in His very Person (but, of course, this hypostatic union is something beyond anything else we have experienced, and so it must be understood that the way the body and soul are united in a man is, of course, not exactly the same as the way Christ’s two natures are united in His Person).

And, you asked, "So there was the human nature, inside the body of Christ, and the divine nature, which encompasses all the universe, outside of Christ's body?"
Again, the human nature of Christ consists not only of His Body, but also of His HUMAN Soul-- for, being a Man, and as a Man, Christ, like all human beings, is a composite of His human Body and His human Soul (and, so, when Christ died, He, like all men who die, experienced a real separation of His human body and His human soul-- although, it is to be noted that, though Christ's human soul separated from His human body in death, His Divinity, i.e., His Divine Nature, actually remained united to both His Body and His Soul, even while He was dead). Now, the Divine Nature of Christ is truly Divine and, as such, It, even since the time of the Incarnation of the Word in Mary's Womb, possesses all of the qualities of Divinity, including omnipresence (and, so, yes, His Divine nature is everywhere in the universe, even outside of Christ's Body). But, that said, the Divine Nature of the Word is, I think one could say, "present in a most excellent manner in the human nature of Christ", since that Divine Nature is hypostatically united to the Human Nature of Christ, i.e., the two Natures, though distinct, are still most intimately united together in the very Person of the Word. And, so, these two natures are not separate, even if they are distinct, for they are united in the Person of the Word (and, if it sounds like I am repeating myself, I do so deliberately to get this fundamental and important point across). And, these natures are united in the Person of the Word because the Word has assumed a human nature (i.e., the human nature which the Word assumed in the womb of Mary), with the effect being that, when the human nature of Christ acts or experiences anything, eg., birth, eating, nursing, death, etc., it can be said, truly, that it is the WORD (the PERSON of the Word) Who, truly possessing this human nature as His very own Personal human nature, is born, eats, is nursed, dies, lays in the tomb dead, rises from the dead, etc., for the Word, performing these actions in the human nature He received from/in Mary, is the PERSON who is the subject of action in all of these actions (mystery grand this is!) So, we can truly say, "In the beginning, in eternity, before and outside of all time, was the Word, and this Word was with God, and this Word is the Eternal God, and He created all things....and this Word, in time, while not ceasing to be God, assumed, i.e., took to Himself, a human nature, being conceived as a human being in the virginal womb of Mary (may all generations call that Glorious Virgin 'Blessed'!). And, as Man, i.e., in this Human Nature which He, the Word, took to Himself, as His own Personal human nature, in the womb of that same Blessed Mary, this Word did all of the following: this Word was born of Mary; this Word was nursed and fed by Mary; this Word was a carpenter with Joseph, the Just Spouse of the Virgin; this Word lived as a son to this Joseph; this Word was baptized by John in the Jordan; this Word spent roughly a whole 30 years with Mary and Joseph; this Word spent roughly only three years in public ministry; this Word preached; this Word performed miracles; this Word fished; this Word ate fish; this Word was betrayed by Judas; this Word was scourged, tortured, crucified, died, and His dead Body was lain in a Tomb (while His human soul went to the region of the dead in order to open the gates of heaven for the souls of those just ones who had died before Him); this Word gloriously rose again from the dead; this Word founded a Church on Peter and His Apostles, giving to Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and promising that hell would never conquer this Church; this Word is the Savior of the World, the Redeemer of Mankind...and He is, again, the Eternal God, and He is also Man, for this Word is the Eternal Son of the Eternal Father, and He is the Son of Glorious and Blessed Virgin Mary. This Word is Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, and to this Word, with the Father and the Holy Spirit, belongs all power and glory, now and unto the ages of ages. Amen, Amen, and Amen!"

I hope that makes some sense and helps!

In Christ, the God-Man, the Son of God and the Son of Mary,
BrotherAlan
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."

BrotherAlan
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:42 am

Re: Did God die on the Cross?

Post by BrotherAlan » Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:26 pm

Note: in case you checked my most recent post earlier, note that I have edited it, not only adding a number of new ideas, but also making a very important clarification. This clarification is, simply, that the human nature and the Divine nature of Christ are distinct, but not separate, for they are united in the Person of the Word (in my first published edition of this previous post, I stated that they were united, but also "separate", in the Word-- but, by "separate" there, I really meant "distinct". But, now I am saying that it is just best to avoid using the word "separate" in this context altogether. For, as stated above, these two natures are not "separate" from each other, but, rather, they are united in the Person of the Word, even if they remain two distinct natures possessed by the Person of the Word). So, again, in case you did read my reply earlier, I invite you to look at the updated reply in which I believe I express the truth of the matter more accurately and precisely.

In Christ,
BrotherAlan
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."

Post Reply

Return to “Theology Proper, Christology, Pneumatology”