Being Subject To Our Leaders

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_Paidion
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Post by _Paidion » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:37 pm

Paidion, you are well read on the early church. Do you know of any 1st or 2nd century Christian(s) so bold as to claim to have been equal in staus to the twelve and Paul?
I think the twelve and Paul would be shocked to hear of their calling linked with status.

As I see it, the twelve were a special group who had been called by Jesus. At the time Judas was replaced, it seemed that the critierion was to have been a witness to the resurrection of Christ. So the eleven wished to choose a person who had gone in and out among them, beginning from the baptism of John until the day when Jesus was raised from the dead.

So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection." Acts 1:21, 22

It is interesting that the Lord chose Matthias. It was Joseph that seemed to have been the man of status:

And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. Acts 1:23

It is interesting that Joseph's other name and surname are mentioned, as if he were someone important, whereas Matthias is just plain Matthias.

I think the twelve were a subset of all true apostles. They had to have had the qualification of being called by Jesus, or at least to have walked among the others, as had Joseph and Matthias.

I don't think Paul belonged to this subset. I think he belonged to the wider group who are called apostles. It's true that Christ appeared to him in a miraculous way and called him to be his witness.

The broader group were also called by Christ, perhaps not in as dramatic way as Paul. They were especially chosen, as you have said, Homer, to be special messengers. However, I do think the noun "apostolos" is closely related to the verb "apostellō" This verb has a more specific meaning than simply "send". If the writer had simply meant "send", he would have used "pempō"

"apostellō" means "to send with a commission". If you are sent in that way, you have a job to do.

There is also evidence that these apostles had authority in the church. This is obvious from Paul's letters, although he often states that he hadn't exercised that authority, but appealed to those in the churches instead. Also, he didn't exercise his right to be supported financially, but supported himself by working instead.

I have observed a genuine humility in some of those that the local church with whom I meet, regard as apostles. These leading brethren always seem to have time to listen to people, and pray with them concerning their problems. I have seen them truly serve those whom the Lord has placed in their charge.

To answer you question, Homer, I know of no one in the first or second century church who claimed to be one of the Twelve. Yet several in the first century, as you yourself mentioned, were called "apostles".

It seems that the term "apostle" was dropped rather quickly in the second century, and leading brethren were called "overseers" of the Church in a city of area. The Church at Corinth, for example, was probably made up of several home churches with an overseer in each one, but a general overseer for the total of churches in Corinth. The term "overseer" seemed to have been replaced by simply "elder" in a particular congregation to distinguish him from the general overseer. Thus the elder-overseer distinction appeared in the second century, whereas no such distinction is made in the New Testament.

However, the term "prophet" appears to have continued throughout the second century.
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Post by _Homer » Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:54 pm

Paidion,

You wrote:

I think the twelve and Paul would be shocked to hear of their calling linked with status.
I do not understand why you think this. Do you think that they did not understand that their position, relative to the rest of the church, was different?

Definition, Status:

1. Position relative to that of others; standing: Her status is that of a guest.

You immediately differentiated them from others:
As I see it, the twelve were a special group who had been called by Jesus.
You seem to indicate you agree that apostles have a message. Evangelists also are sent out with a message. It seems to me evangelists bring a previously proclaimed message while apostles reveal information that was previously unknown. In the Gospel of John, Jesus informed them that they would have recollection of all that had transpired and new things would be revealed to them. Otherwise, how is their being messengers differentiated from that of evangelists?

You say the church you attend has apostles. Does it also have elders? I thought elders were to be the shepherds (overseers) of the local congregation. How are these apostles not redundant, both in authority and in the message they bring, or do they have some other function?
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Post by _Paidion » Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:29 pm

You say the church you attend has apostles. Does it also have elders? I thought elders were to be the shepherds (overseers) of the local congregation.
No. I said that the church I attend recognizes certain brethren as apostles.
Locally it has elders to oversee the congregation, elders who were appointed by the apostles under inspiration, and through a word of prophecy by the laying on of hands.

These apostles oversee the whole circle of fellowship.

The leading brethren ( or "apostles") visit the local churches, as did apostles in the early church, and they teach among them. This helps to unify the churches in such a way that they have a common perspective concering the universal Church, and the practices which Jesus, as well as Paul and other apostles taught to be observed. This does not mean that everyone accepts all of theological teachings of the leading brethren like little sheep. There are still differences in belief among the people, although these differences are perpaps not as marked as between brethren in other circles. Probably I, myself, am one of the more independent thinkers.

For example, the circle in general is Trinitarian, Arminian, and Reconciliationist, but I am non-Trinitarian, Open theistic, but also Reconciliationist. I did not believe in the reconcilation of all things to God until I began attending this church. I was first exposed to it through a private conversation I heard at a summer camp. I thought I had gotten myself into a cult! But within the next few months, the Lord showed me the truth of it from the Scriptures. It was like a key that opened up the meaning of many scriptures to me which were previously a mystery.
It also elevated my understanding of the power, love, and authority of God.
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Post by _Homer » Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:20 pm

Paidion,

You wrote:
I said that the church I attend recognizes certain brethren as apostles.
Locally it has elders to oversee the congregation, elders who were appointed by the apostles under inspiration, and through a word of prophecy by the laying on of hands.

These apostles oversee the whole circle of fellowship.
Interesting! How are these apostles chosen? Do these apostles appoint their successors? Do they claim a line of succession going back to the first apostles?

And you wrote:

The leading brethren ( or "apostles") visit the local churches, as did apostles in the early church, and they teach among them. This helps to unify the churches in such a way that they have a common perspective concering the universal Church, and the practices which Jesus, as well as Paul and other apostles taught to be observed. This does not mean that everyone accepts all of theological teachings of the leading brethren like little sheep.
It sounds as though they make no claim to infallibity in their teachings nor are they regarded as such. Many other denominations might have similar leaders/teachers that are designated by a different title, if I may use that word.

Do you mind sharing with us the name of the denomination or, if considered nondenominational, what they are commonly called?

Thanks, Homer
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Post by _Paidion » Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:13 am

Interesting! How are these apostles chosen? Do these apostles appoint their successors? Do they claim a line of succession going back to the first apostles?


They do not claim a line of succession going back to the first apostles. They see this expression of the Church as a restoration of the early church, a special move of God, which began in 1948, where God spoke though prophecy, declaring:

At this time, I will restore to my church all nine gifts of the Spirit, and they shall be given by prophecy, with the laying on of hands of the presbytery. I shall indicate from time to time those who are ready to be prayed over.

They do appoint other "travelling elders" (apostles) as needed, by revelation and the laying on of hands just as they appoint local elders and deacons. They also, through the spirit, impart gifts and ministries from the Lord to various members as the spirit of God indicates.

Elders and deacons are considered to exist at three levels:

1] The universal level
Travelling elders (apostles) and apostolic deacons, their assistants, have oversight over the entire circle of fellowship.

2] The local level
Elders and deacons, their helpers, are appointed in the local churches.

3] The home level
The Christian home is considered to be an expression of the church as well. The father is considered to be the elder in the home, and the mother the deaconess.
It sounds as though they make no claim to infallibity in their teachings nor are they regarded as such. Many other denominations might have similar leaders/teachers that are designated by a different title, if I may use that word.


No, they do not claim infallibility. Indeed, the existence of a number of leading brethren (about ten) results in checks and balances. If any of them should become extreme in some way, the others help to bring him back to normality. Some of the early leaders (about 1950) actually separated and started their own groups.

Indeed the "Latter Rain" groups came out of the North Battleford revival, and some people confuse those groups with the North Battleford Group.
They are quite different in most respects.

There are far more churches of the N.B. Group in foreign countries than in North America.

The communion of bread and wine in remembrance of our Lord takes place every Sunday in every church. Body ministry is practised in the church meetings. Any person present, even a stranger, is welcome to share, to suggest a song, give a prophecy or a short talk. Most churches are so well settled and so well taught, that an off-beat teaching by a visitor is not seen as a threat.
Do you mind sharing with us the name of the denomination or, if considered nondenominational, what they are commonly called?
The group is nondenominational. It considers itself as a true expression of the one and only church of Christ, or Christian Church, or Body of Christ.
The people usually refer to the circle of fellowship as "The Move". I know that other groups use that term also.

Outsiders usually call the circle "The North Battleford Group" because the special revival in which many revolutionary changes took place, occurred at a Pentecostal Bible School at North Battleford, Saskatchewan in 1948.

Prior to that "revolution" the members of the group were with the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canda (analagous to the Assemblies of God in the U.S.A.)

The group now differs quite sharply from the P.A.O.C in many of its beliefs and practices. However, there seems to be a certain amount of carryover.

Here is part of an account given at the time of the 1948 revival:

"On February fourteenth it seemed that all Heaven broke loose. To some it was prophesied that they would receive the gift of healing and immediately began to heal the sick. Discernment of spirits was given and the influence of evil spirits was discerned and these were cast out. Faith began to operate mightily, and men and women prophesied like a river. We sang new songs that had never been sung before.

The Spirit of God indicated to us that He would restore to us the ministries of apostles and prophets, and that He would begin to bring together the Body of Christ from the four winds in anwer to the prayer of Jesus... 'that they all might be ONE, that the world might believe.' We were shown that it would begin with a remnant with 'eyes to see and ears to hear.' All traditions and sectarian divisions would be left behind. God would require a level of consecration and dedication never before dreamed of, but ultimately the Church would be filled with all the fullness of God..."

Homer, I trust this answers your question. If you would like to know more about the group, you can find some very accurate information in the last chapter of a book called, "Terry Miller: The Pacifist Politician (From Hutterite Colony to State Capitol). This last chapter is called "The North Battleford Group", a chapter which is fairly brief but quite thorough concerning the origin of the group The book was written by Rod A. Janzen, whom I believe is a Mennonite.

Terry Miller, who was with a number of communal Anabaptist groups, is now an apostolic deacon with the "North Battleford Group." I have heard him speak many times; he sometimes visits our local assembly and speaks.
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Post by _Homer » Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:08 am

Paidion,

Thank you for the interesting information!

Homer
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