Gay Christians

[Guest]

Now the next question is, what would you do if a gay couple showed up and began worshipping at your church?



I think Paul spoke clearly about men laying with men , not about just having the desire but actually committing the act. I don't doubt that homosexuals in general are in pain and lead difficult lives and we should try and help them and welcome them. But a church has a responsibility to be an example for it's members and visitors and that responsibility has to be weighed against allowing an openly gay couple to worship at the church in front of kids and teens who look to adults for moral leadership. So if i were a Pastor i don't see any problem with individual homosexuals coming to worship but as a couple , sorry i don't think it would be wise.

[Guest]

So, if a homosexual can become a Christian, at what point must they cease being homosexual?

The following passage speaks for itself:

... do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. I Corinthians 6:9-11 NASB

[Guest]

I just want to share my thoughts.

I don't have problem with homosexuals going to church as long as they are sincere and have the intention to change.

[_Steve]

A homosexual male is not in a very different position from a straight male who has no prospects for marriage. Of course, every straight male may be said to potentially or theoretically have prospects for marriage, even if it seems hopeless over a long period of time. He may eventually find someone willing to marry him. However, the sad truth is, there are many straight men and women who greatly desire to marry, but it never happens for them.

It may even be more difficult for that straight person than for the homosexual person, because the straight person may live with legitimate, but unfulfilled, hopes of future marriage—a hope ultimately denied to him in reality as surely as it is denied to the homosexual male. One difference is that a homosexual who comes to Christ on Christ's terms knows that, if his orientation never changes, he can count on never marrying. Once one has come to terms with the fact that marriage will never be for him, he can settle his mind upon serving God in celibate singleness.

I don't say that this is easy, but it can be much more tranquil than the unsettled mind of the man always desiring a mate, knowing that there may be one for him just around the next bend, but never finding one. I know many men of the latter type, and have considered that I might myself be forever in that state. If I am not to ever again have a partner, it would be merciful if there was some way of my learning about it earlier, not later. If I were incurably gay in my orientation (not a chance of that happening), then it would settle the question for me.

Some may think that, as a man in visible ministry, I would have many prospects for marriage. Perhaps I do—but, as a veteran of two failed marriages, I can testify that there are worse things than perpetual singleness. Marriage is not always more blissful than celibacy, and some people whom others may view as very marriageable may know of factors that make it very unlikely that they will ever be properly and happily matched with a mate in their lifetime.

I am very relieved to see that homosexuals are being treated less like lepers by many evangelical Christians than was the case a decade ago. I can appreciate the fact that most homosexuals are anything but "gay" people. They are wounded people, and have a tormenting orientation that most of them did not choose to have. However, the problem is not resolved by the whole church being in denial about the sinfulness and the destructiveness of homosexual conduct. The gay-friendly churches are attempting to solve the problem of marginalized homosexual sufferers, but they will not hit on the right solution until they have properly identified the real problem.

I suspect that the real problem with many homosexually-oriented Christians is not much different from the problem with most straight Christians—namely, they have not really come to Christ on His terms. They still look at their own happiness, satisfaction and gratification as goals that God is obligated to honor. This is the very miscalculation of which proper preaching should disabuse all men. It becomes so much easier to deal with disappointment once we realize that what we are promised is righteousness, not temporal happiness—and that righteousness is only promised to those who train their hearts to hunger and thirst for it, rather than for sexual intimacy and personal satisfaction.

"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied." (Matt.5:6)

[Guest]

wow, steve, you said that well.

if a person is "born" homosexual (i.e. God "made" them that way)- a proposition that I am still not sure about, it would seem that they are doomed to a celibate lifestyle, unless they choose to "go against the grain" and marry a woman. I suppose the same could be said of the chronically unmarried heterosexual person, although possibly not by choice. So I agree with you that the ability to choose to be celibate would be more desirable than having it forced upon a person because they can't find a person to marry.

by the way, do you think God "makes" people homosexual? Or is it just a sin? When I read Romans 1, it seems to me that Paul is saying that homosexuality is a sin, and when people persist in it God "gives them over"- which seems to mean that the person starts to believe that is the way he was made, and therefore his behavior is "acceptable." This is of course what we see a lot of today. But if God truly makes people homosexual, it is a little more difficult to interpret romans 1, to me at least.

TK

[Guest]

I think it has been pretty well established, TK, that there is no such thing as a "homosexual gene".

I believe that homosexual behaviour is learned behaviour, and with current attitudes, an increasing number of people are going to learn it.

Teaching homosexuality as a "normal alternative life style" begins early in elementary school, even in grade 2, by exposing these young, impressionable children to books with titles such as "Joey has two daddies".

I cannot but think that the many children who are adopted by homosexuals couples are much more likely to become homosexual themselves.

[Guest]

By the way, I almost forgot to share with you guys the story of my wife's
first cousin. The first time I saw my wife's first cousin he was 18 years old he just graduated from highschool. He does not have any sign of homosexuality. His friends and bestfriend are all straight male in fact his best friend got married and he was the best man. What happened was that when he start attending university he start showing sign of homosexuality I know this because he lived with us while he was attending university his movement start changing. I knew that something was wrong but what do i know about witnessing I was not a christian back then and not only that his parents tolerated his decision to become a homosexual.

[_Steve]

I don't believe there is such a thing as a homosexual gene, and, as Paidion said, I am fairly sure it is a learned behavior. However, it may not always be learned by choice. Many homosexual people seem to have acquired that orientation as a result of childhood victimization. Almost every homosexual I have gotten to know was sexually molested as a child by a male.

It is not difficult to see how a child's first erotic experience in life might mark his sexual tastes and, later, his sexual temptations. In such a case, though the person was not "born gay," he may well be very innocent of having a homosexual "orientation." This does not mean that he is entitled to go out and fornicate according to these desires, any more than a straight person is free to fornicate according to his heterosexual desires.

In Romans 1, Paul speaks of people degenerating into homosexual lust as a result of their prior sinful indulgence. When people make sexual pleasure their god, or their obsession, it is, no doubt, a lot like a drug. Eventually, "normal" sex does not give the same high it once gave. Kinky sex must be introduced in order to get the same erotic thrill. But "kinky" is a slippery slope. The craving for sexual novelty often leads to promiscuity, voyeurism, the use of pornography, a craving for multiple sex partners (simultaneously), paedophilia, bi-sexuality, homosexuality and beastiality.

Therefore, I believe there may be two kinds of homosexuals—those who have felt those urges since a young age, as a result of victimhood, and those who have reached that point as the result of a degenerating spiral of sexual idolatry. The latter, I think, could be said to have been "given over," as Paul speaks in Romans 1.

The former may be no different in the sight of God than any other struggling wretch in this fallen world. Their struggle is with inappropriate sexual desire (many straight people have essentially the same struggle, but toward the opposite sex). Others, who do not have these struggles, have other struggles, like with gambling, overeating, bad temper, moodiness, laziness, etc.

In my opinion, Romans 1 is not describing the downward spiral of every unrepentant sinner—since many such never end up burning with lust toward members of their same sex. I think it is describing the trend in a society that forgets God (reflected in the history of Israel, in particular). Not everyone in such a corrupt society becomes homosexual, but the society's moral compass goes berserk so that it approves and affirms more and more corrupt behaviors. Our own society seems to have taken this course over the span of a single generation.